From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCjts3kBBoEHUzhSA@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 17 05:12:39 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OwZns-00073l-K5; Fri, 17 Sep 2010 05:12:38 -0700 Received: by gwb11 with SMTP id 11sf2202252gwb.16 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2010 05:12:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=3XcSl3nLpYa/7xWVNRuqsHnxHxNSIw1/7D3joE+qPBU=; b=yQ6ugpteaq2Hbvia/6qDl0NfMvFv3hnL1d/DsBIGG1X1mjI+mTsUb0BrrjQ7lGLuKm e0seEzJrZ8fVH7B0yoyE/zyTkfqJmZGgR3FNR0IyRn29SHgu4CH4Z4l+YzDRoGuKNMDM PwHayw6PO6nrDKe80XgaWUCYY+I4Dlh2DE3oI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=QErB3Ls1OhIfZ77ag3uw/e6A8DDfTmvw6sIJERVPMIdAzSJjbv+C+LCKIcKQZ0e8uf DKzUvWybYuCSNmIN1JD1dwbTwI/5qSn9ZZQttiEC8d9VJtynqPuQ8Reu7s1JgycLVQk/ MISLnRhDCnt0hcgwt5u1R2/TAY1zDYG6LFIDg= Received: by 10.91.103.11 with SMTP id f11mr727076agm.59.1284725539502; Fri, 17 Sep 2010 05:12:19 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.145.1 with SMTP id s1ls757190ybd.1.p; Fri, 17 Sep 2010 05:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.12.6 with SMTP id 6mr1071192ybl.50.1284725538582; Fri, 17 Sep 2010 05:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.12.6 with SMTP id 6mr1071190ybl.50.1284725538517; Fri, 17 Sep 2010 05:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gy0-f178.google.com (mail-gy0-f178.google.com [209.85.160.178]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id q26si3433429ybk.10.2010.09.17.05.12.17; Fri, 17 Sep 2010 05:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.178; Received: by gye5 with SMTP id 5so804846gye.23 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2010 05:12:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.90.84.1 with SMTP id h1mr3077709agb.138.1284725536993; Fri, 17 Sep 2010 05:12:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.206.133 with HTTP; Fri, 17 Sep 2010 05:12:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4C934B04.1090903@lojban.org> References: <729457.38076.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4C8DF3A5.3040702@lojban.org> <364433.94354.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <575987.94184.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <997710.60999.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4C934B04.1090903@lojban.org> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 06:12:16 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: other-centric UI From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.178 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e64f47d64431880490737987 --0016e64f47d64431880490737987 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 5:03 AM, Robert LeChevalier wrote: > John E Clifford wrote: > >> I do wish you would try to justify it, since justification often leads to >> clarification of what is being claimed. So far as I can tell, empathetic >> emotions (etc.) are not all that common (nor all that rare). They are common >> enough that I am surprised that, in the gazillion different ways of doing >> expressions, that made their way into CLL, this possibility was missed, >> > > The fact that empathic emotional expression was needed, we recognized > before CLL. Whether there really is a need to express the direction of the > empathy attitudinally wasn't recognized, and I am not that sure it makes > sense. > > Identifying the direction of the empathy seems to me to be a greater degree > of self-analysis than we expected for attitudinals/emotional expression. I > can imagine that such analysis might happen sometimes. > > (The example that comes to mind - watching a crowd of kids playing sports, > and one of them trips and goes flying. My "Oooh, that's gotta hurt" could be > expressed Lojbanically as an attitudinal, and I can imagine if expressing it > to a fellow spectator, who by not reacting may not have seen it, I may wish > to "point" to the kid who went flying. > > But I think this would be rare, and in the similar case of two kids whose > names I don't know crashing into each other, I'd have to logically AND two > descriptions "oooh, that's gotta hurt - the short kid with black hair and > the tall kid with the red jersey" - this seems to have gone far beyond > expressing empathy.) > > Since I'm not sure that the expression really empathic, the solution that > comes to mind for situations like this is NOT attitudinals or vocatives, but > observatives, possibly with attitudinals attached reflecting the speaker's > reaction ("cortu .uu" or ".uu cortu" for the above example, and it is > trivial to add "fa le tordu ..." on the end to identify the one(s) being > "empathized" with). > > This intuitively seems more "logical" to me, and hence to be preferred for > Lojbanic expression. UI isn't generally intended to be an abbreviation for > longer Lojban expressions, though we've sometimes analyzed discursives as a > shortened form of metalinguistic expression, and I sense that the use of > da'oi is closer to a shortened discursive claim than it is to a true > expression of empathy. > > But I would have to see it in context, and THAT is what is missing from the > examples cited. If this usage has actually occurred on IRC, as selckiku > asserts, then rather than trying to invent examples where it MIGHT beuseful, > the better justification would be to quote chunks of IRC conversation where > the usage HAS occurred, to see if the situation really seemed like one where > empathy expression is taking place. > > lojbab If I remember correctly, any Lojban said in IRC is automagically recorded. It would be a simple matter for someone who knows where to access those records to do a search for {da'oi}. -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e64f47d64431880490737987 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 5:03 AM, Robert LeCheval= ier <lojbab@lojba= n.org> wrote:
John E Clifford wrote:
I do wish you would try to justify it, since justification often leads to c= larification of what is being claimed. =A0So far as I can tell, empathetic = emotions (etc.) are not all that common (nor all that rare). They are commo= n enough that I am surprised that, in the gazillion different ways of doing= expressions, that made their way into CLL, this possibility was missed,

The fact that empathic emotional expression was needed, we recognized befor= e CLL. =A0Whether there really is a need to express the direction of the em= pathy attitudinally wasn't recognized, and I am not that sure it makes = sense.

Identifying the direction of the empathy seems to me to be a greater degree= of self-analysis than we expected for attitudinals/emotional expression. = =A0I can imagine that such analysis might happen sometimes.

(The example that comes to mind - watching a crowd of kids playing sports, = and one of them trips and goes flying. My "Oooh, that's gotta hurt= " could be expressed Lojbanically as an attitudinal, and I can imagine= if expressing it to a fellow spectator, who by not reacting may not have s= een it, I may wish to "point" to the kid who went flying.

But I think this would be rare, and in the similar case of two kids whose n= ames I don't know crashing into each other, I'd have to logically A= ND two descriptions "oooh, that's gotta hurt - the short kid with = black hair and the tall kid with the red jersey" - this seems to have = gone far beyond expressing empathy.)

Since I'm not sure that the expression really empathic, the solution th= at comes to mind for situations like this is NOT attitudinals or vocatives,= but observatives, possibly with attitudinals attached reflecting the speak= er's reaction ("cortu .uu" or ".uu cortu" for the a= bove example, and it is trivial to add "fa le tordu ..." on the e= nd to identify the one(s) being "empathized" with).

This intuitively seems more "logical" to me, and hence to be pref= erred for Lojbanic expression. =A0UI isn't generally intended to be an = abbreviation for longer Lojban expressions, though we've sometimes anal= yzed discursives as a shortened form of metalinguistic expression, and I se= nse that the use of da'oi is closer to a shortened discursive claim tha= n it is to a true expression of empathy.

But I would have to see it in context, and THAT is what is missing from the= examples cited. =A0If this usage has actually occurred on IRC, as selckiku= asserts, then rather than trying to invent examples where it MIGHT beusefu= l, the better justification would be to quote chunks of IRC conversation wh= ere the usage HAS occurred, to see if the situation really seemed like one = where empathy expression is taking place.

lojbab

If I remember correctly, any Lojban said in IR= C is automagically recorded. It would be a simple matter for someone who kn= ows where to access those records to do a search for {da'oi}.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le= bende pe denpa bu

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