From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhDb1uPkBBoEVZ3vdQ@googlegroups.com Tue Sep 21 10:29:28 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Oy6eV-0000D0-NC; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:29:27 -0700 Received: by wyb40 with SMTP id 40sf1380097wyb.16 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:29:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=kzh1vgsLpKyL/kqbr136FquyKYIbqiSTJbgcKsurBEU=; b=pVzVubHM+QXTmn3/pEi+ysTz1VTHVT0HmGhf3gEGYN7PaBptqG2JWPNIreeVnzKI1F 2s8DHtmuWpMYWPek1E4yy2TRtS+UbE0zQ8nTuOK2GC6+jZXvG5OHpD6dsFmKMdvSuP0W w59KDC8eN9ToGLTmp4RfRW2mQlHGAkcLh07Gk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=xmVNP3BE3ru1/n/w92uMDmvHw4w0qK3qK99V2Z6LhKklI1Foy5bAIizpeG2a2MhK7f Ra3NYRJ5ouaHY3KNYkBEdEUeXxiG+wJGNTOXBp5YpdLpQBPFAc2TPnln+wQOGE+dw8u4 Y180tw2klSmGqGFRUQCMS++JA178lZQbkOatw= Received: by 10.216.145.9 with SMTP id o9mr2002116wej.0.1285090139167; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:28:59 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.213.45.206 with SMTP id g14ls2526482ebf.0.p; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.32.135 with SMTP id c7mr800537ebd.9.1285090137985; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.32.135 with SMTP id c7mr800536ebd.9.1285090137958; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ey0-f182.google.com (mail-ey0-f182.google.com [209.85.215.182]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id r57si9725991eeh.1.2010.09.21.10.28.56; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.182 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.182; Received: by eyx24 with SMTP id 24so3166777eyx.27 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:28:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.35.72 with SMTP id o8mr8572917ebd.80.1285090136786; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.191.134 with HTTP; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:28:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201009211852.26915.jezuch@interia.pl> References: <201009211852.26915.jezuch@interia.pl> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 13:28:56 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] ma krinu lonu lo jbopre na tavla fo la.lojban. ne'i levi snustu | Why aren't we speaking in Lojban in here? From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/9/21 Krzysztof Sobolewski : > Dnia wtorek, 21 wrze=B6nia 2010 o 17:57:57 Michael Turniansky napisa=B3(a= ): >> =A0 I use constructions like "setese" for three reasons -- 1) when I'm >> translating and trying to mimic the word order of the velfanva 2) When >> I'm trying to emphasize one sumti over another (it's paradigmatic that >> earlier sumti places seem to be perceived as "more important" than >> later ones), and/or 3) If I have a complex sumti, I'd rather throw it >> at the end of the sentence rather than have to put a whole bunch of >> terminators so that you can "pop up" a half dozen levels and have to >> remember "what was the main selbri again? =A0Oh, yeah..." before getting >> to the next sumti. =A0That's a lot of processing power to ask of a human >> listener/reader. =A0(I tend to write lojban like I speak English -- with >> lots of subrodinate cruft) >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa > > All of these can also be achieved by using FA, right? What I find a littl= e unsettling with "setese" etc. is that conversion does not merely reorder = the places, but creates a completely new relation. "se klama" is subtly but= importantly different from "klama". It's easy to get with "se", but how sh= ould I interpret it with "setese"? > -- But that's because (it seems to me) you are still thinking about lojban brivla as if they were single natlang words. "se klama" does NOT mean "a destination" It means. X1 is where x2 is going from x3 via route x4 and vehicle x5. The place values are just as important. "setese frati" means "x1 is reacting to x2 with reaction x3", an order which is natural enough in English (can't speak to other natlangs). --gejyspa --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.