From lojban+bncCMqlifSxDBDU3OrkBBoEsn0PBQ@googlegroups.com Wed Sep 22 18:33:25 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Oyagb-0005k0-Be; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 18:33:25 -0700 Received: by pzk7 with SMTP id 7sf96347pzk.16 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 18:33:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:date:from:to :subject:message-id:mime-version:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Yc9kcWgH9EPg9J8P1WDkQ2BZ+ZfTkX9Z70tbvZbWfaE=; b=lVLVU/P0HyDSieuSWJTHAlE6ra2wD5npPyEYlVBDhG/RAagBezpg4T6Pg1WO87B1Tu n8guMlc/jbnqaL+u5xQKyFJ8UCJRFo4uVLis39etHI8KeSS/HM65d/l2Z2P/5YXXimEj oGihSB4wzDxtvgH8RgRbBIeSlWekxq0fGQ8vE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id :mime-version:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition :content-transfer-encoding; b=X4scC0zY2+ObBox6ZniYimPgwV62MdP+P0YgyfwPQyPF319ykRp29fHP9UAdkQSZU6 SlEHfHVQL/rFzh3woJhYiS1cF+Qjf9EDfkiWJDQo9WxOFwSu9SogIn1kAyEMgC6HqYUX m4ktXch2zWlzJTFyc9pHvySuWpfV+SjzdDz7o= Received: by 10.142.156.11 with SMTP id d11mr44736wfe.38.1285205588989; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 18:33:08 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.10.2 with SMTP id 2ls579103wfj.0.p; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 18:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.218.18 with SMTP id q18mr165362wfg.15.1285205588566; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 18:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.218.18 with SMTP id q18mr165361wfg.15.1285205588533; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 18:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pw0-f51.google.com (mail-pw0-f51.google.com [209.85.160.51]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id a8si251651wfg.6.2010.09.22.18.33.07; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 18:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of raposa.msscripting@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.51 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.51; Received: by pwj2 with SMTP id 2so180373pwj.10 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 18:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.52.8 with SMTP id z8mr1088748waz.140.1285205587370; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 18:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (S010600219be23dcb.lb.shawcable.net [70.65.131.227]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q6sm332381waj.22.2010.09.22.18.33.05 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 22 Sep 2010 18:33:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 19:33:02 -0600 From: Brian Robertson To: lojban google groups Subject: [lojban] Quotation mark argument. Message-ID: <20100923013302.GA16099@koganusan.lb.shawcable.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Original-Sender: raposa.msscripting@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of raposa.msscripting@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.51 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=raposa.msscripting@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There was a fairly heated argument in #jbopre about the use of quotation marks in xorxes' alis work. I've edited it down and am posting it here to make the arguments public to everyone interested, and possibly quell any open hatred for the use of quotes from saupre. --- <@rlpowell> Oh god you've got quote marks. >:| * rlpowell isn't sure he's OK with hosting that under his own name. < Hugglesworth> rlpowell: why such brutal hatred for quote marks? * Hugglesworth knows we've been over this before; long ago. He just forget= s <@rlpowell> Hugglesworth: Audio-visual isomorphism <@rlpowell> Which I really, *really* like. <@rlpowell> If you're going to replace lu/li'u and say "left-quote is prono= unced lu in this work", .... enh. I can live. <@rlpowell> But to have them *in addition* breaks one of my favorite parts = of the language. < tomoj> in addition seems the only good way to me <@rlpowell> Because {.i ca bo ca'o cusku =ABlu .oi} *in Lojban* is {.i ca b= o ca'o cusku zunle bu lu .oi}, OSLT <@rlpowell> tomoj: Does that explain? < tomoj> I'd rather just ignore all non-lojban characters <@rlpowell> I don't much like them instead-of either, because I really like= Lojban's simple morphology. <@rlpowell> But in-addition-to ... just no. <@rlpowell> tomoj: Then what happens to zoi? < tomoj> except when quoted <@rlpowell> I may just be being crotchety, but I *really* like audio-visual= isomorphism, and it upsets me when people fuck with it. <@rlpowell> xorxes: I wasn't really kidding. < tomoj> it's already fucked up < tomoj> speech has many features which aren't represented in lojban text <@rlpowell> tomoj: Only in extremely rare cases involving zoi, as far as I = know. <@rlpowell> tomoj: Umm. Not Lojban as I speak it. < tomoj> to aid in verbal understanding for example < tomoj> the rate at which you say the words, for example < xorxes> It makes the text much more readable < jcowan> rlpowell: And yet you don't object to indentation/blank lines bet= ween paragraphs, or non-essential spaces between words? <@rlpowell> Not to me. And I hate that kind of quote mark anyways. < tomoj> similarly we might use features in text which aren't necessarily r= epresented in speech <@rlpowell> jcowan: THose don't communicate any information. < tomoj> neither do these <@rlpowell> Same with tomoj's speech speed. < tomoj> that's why in-addition-to is good < jcowan> Of course they do. Paragraph marking duplicates ni'o. < tomoj> in-addition-to means you never use a =AB to mean anything at all < tomoj> it's just there to aid the eye when reading < jcowan> Exactly. < xorxes> they are like the pictures in the middle of the text < tomoj> if you make a mistake doing in-addition-to and write "=AB" where y= ou want "=ABlu", your text is ungrammatical < jcowan> tomoj: Or else it isn't, which is worse. < Hugglesworth> rlpowell: do you have a problem with the paragraph tabs? <@rlpowell> jcowan: You're right; if my complaint is that I can't speak out= this text to a Lojbanist and get the same text back (which is exactly me c= omplaint), I need to include thinsg like blank lines in said complaining, o= r STFU. And indentation at the start of paragraphs, and suchlike. <@rlpowell> Hugglesworth: ^^ you too <@rlpowell> < xorxes> they are like the pictures in the middle of the text = -- and that. <@rlpowell> So yeah, I have a problem, in that I'm conflating "sounds must = always communicate the same basic information as words" with "the text must= come back identical". < jcowan> Another case of non-exact-isomorphism is digits vs. digit words, = and yet a mathematical work in Lojban that doesn't have any digits would be= a huge pain. <@rlpowell> jcowan: Explain? <@rlpowell> Oh, NM; I get it. <@rlpowell> Yeah. <@rlpowell> Objection withdrawn. <@rlpowell> I think someone should condense this and post it to the list, b= ecause I suspect that a lot of oldbies that are bothered by the quote thing= were doing the same conflation as I was. --- .lorx. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.