From lojban+bncCK7Yk5CUCxDNiOzkBBoEElhLSQ@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 23 00:40:14 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OygPa-00062P-MJ; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 00:40:14 -0700 Received: by qyk12 with SMTP id 12sf2537373qyk.16 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 00:40:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received :received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=y6Xm6yYCu3i8mwyrqfSrkJUHY2dxkD6ShgUprUuTFl8=; b=6VYVsv4wrzMJ1PBxQi+GXr2T6KJMXIzLXBmKfv9hhEmB1r5xK7sC8fZLqHMivRFym2 BxVG2Via4IfmClZTTkuovugv5WkGNiorwgkzDNESkzkzm9e8GCFRX0xXPSSooGBNiwjR DDpoElOFrRzK+0+YPoeCTx6roIWFgLuxGv2YU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=OXP38QbfooURBYNI454DjfLe+JSP7aLWLMhGzHXYiKgl/eZeDeu87n5lXz5HJ/Z8dt zOAaic7ZR3sDW7LNJiydugy8E3PA9eOHTB+2UuULs4K5LTgJ668J/O9jpERQQnr2ECu9 vbh6NDxycBUBuHVUdDcg9LDtx03HB7nbidscc= Received: by 10.224.140.135 with SMTP id i7mr176775qau.3.1285227597640; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 00:39:57 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.97.224 with SMTP id m32ls204551qan.2.p; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 00:39:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.88.103 with SMTP id z39mr163178qal.10.1285227596943; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 00:39:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.89.82 with SMTP id d18mr176400qcm.18.1285222226622; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 23:10:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.89.82 with SMTP id d18mr176399qcm.18.1285222226597; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 23:10:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f178.google.com (mail-qy0-f178.google.com [209.85.216.178]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id c20si260411qcs.7.2010.09.22.23.10.25; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 23:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.178; Received: by mail-qy0-f178.google.com with SMTP id 36so2049537qyk.16 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 23:10:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.185.145 with SMTP id co17mr958269qcb.108.1285222225470; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 23:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.101.199 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 23:10:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20100923013302.GA16099@koganusan.lb.shawcable.net> References: <20100923013302.GA16099@koganusan.lb.shawcable.net> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 08:10:25 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Quotation mark argument. From: Remo Dentato To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: rdentato@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.178 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rdentato@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I like the lojban audio-visual isomorphism and I think it's one of the most important features of the language. having said that, I also think that flat lojban text is a major obstacle to newcomers. I can feel their pain when confronted to a block of text which seems it has no structure at all. As a computer programmer, I always think about the IOCCC contest when I start reading something. I see quotation marks as mere shortands and, as long as there is a consistent 1-to-1 correspondance I don't see them breaking the audio-visual isomorphism. Let say that '<' is read as "lu" and '>' as "li'u" (just an example, no proposal here!) I would read: mi cusku aloud exactly as I would read mi cusku lu mi klama li'u same goes for 1 -> pa etc. My rule of thumb would be that if I can restore the original lojban text with a simple search and replace I would be fine. The option of having quotation in additiin is even better as you simply map the quote marks to no sound at all. This type of shortening, I think, should only be done with extreme care. I have no opinion on whether there should be a standard for that or not my two cents On Thursday, September 23, 2010, Brian Robertson wrote: > There was a fairly heated argument in #jbopre about the use of quotation > marks in xorxes' alis work. I've edited it down and am posting it here > to make the arguments public to everyone interested, and possibly quell > any open hatred for the use of quotes from saupre. > > --- > > <@rlpowell> Oh god you've got quote marks. =A0>:| > =A0* rlpowell isn't sure he's OK with hosting that under his own name. > < Hugglesworth> rlpowell: why such brutal hatred for quote marks? > =A0* Hugglesworth knows we've been over this before; long ago. He just fo= rgets > <@rlpowell> Hugglesworth: Audio-visual isomorphism > <@rlpowell> Which I really, *really* like. > <@rlpowell> If you're going to replace lu/li'u and say "left-quote is pro= nounced lu in this work", .... enh. =A0I can live. > <@rlpowell> But to have them *in addition* breaks one of my favorite part= s of the language. > < tomoj> in addition seems the only good way to me > <@rlpowell> Because {.i ca bo ca'o cusku =ABlu .oi} *in Lojban* is {.i ca= bo ca'o cusku zunle bu lu .oi}, OSLT > <@rlpowell> tomoj: Does that explain? > < tomoj> I'd rather just ignore all non-lojban characters > <@rlpowell> I don't much like them instead-of either, because I really li= ke Lojban's simple morphology. > <@rlpowell> But in-addition-to ... just no. > <@rlpowell> tomoj: Then what happens to zoi? > < tomoj> except when quoted > <@rlpowell> I may just be being crotchety, but I *really* like audio-visu= al isomorphism, and it upsets me when people fuck with it. > <@rlpowell> xorxes: I wasn't really kidding. > < tomoj> it's already fucked up > < tomoj> speech has many features which aren't represented in lojban text > <@rlpowell> tomoj: Only in extremely rare cases involving zoi, as far as = I know. > <@rlpowell> tomoj: Umm. =A0Not Lojban as I speak it. > < tomoj> to aid in verbal understanding for example > < tomoj> the rate at which you say the words, for example > < xorxes> It makes the text much more readable > < jcowan> rlpowell: And yet you don't object to indentation/blank lines b= etween paragraphs, or non-essential spaces between words? > <@rlpowell> Not to me. =A0And I hate that kind of quote mark anyways. > < tomoj> similarly we might use features in text which aren't necessarily= represented in speech > <@rlpowell> jcowan: THose don't communicate any information. > < tomoj> neither do these > <@rlpowell> Same with tomoj's speech speed. > < tomoj> that's why in-addition-to is good > < jcowan> Of course they do. =A0Paragraph marking duplicates ni'o. > < tomoj> in-addition-to means you never use a =AB to mean anything at all > < tomoj> it's just there to aid the eye when reading > < jcowan> Exactly. > < xorxes> they are like the pictures in the middle of the text > < tomoj> if you make a mistake doing in-addition-to and write "=AB" where= you want "=ABlu", your text is ungrammatical > < jcowan> tomoj: Or else it isn't, which is worse. > < Hugglesworth> rlpowell: do you have a problem with the paragraph tabs? > <@rlpowell> jcowan: You're right; if my complaint is that I can't speak o= ut this text to a Lojbanist and get the same text back (which is exactly me= complaint), I need to include thinsg like blank lines in said complaining,= or STFU. =A0And indentation at the start of paragraphs, and suchlike. > <@rlpowell> Hugglesworth: ^^ you too > <@rlpowell> < xorxes> they are like the pictures in the middle of the tex= t -- and that. > <@rlpowell> So yeah, I have a problem, in that I'm conflating "sounds mus= t always communicate the same basic information as words" with "the text mu= st come back identical". > < jcowan> Another case of non-exact-isomorphism is digits vs. digit words= , and yet a mathematical work in Lojban that doesn't have any digits would = be a huge pain. > <@rlpowell> jcowan: Explain? > <@rlpowell> Oh, NM; I get it. > <@rlpowell> Yeah. > <@rlpowell> Objection withdrawn. > <@rlpowell> I think someone should condense this and post it to the list,= because I suspect that a lot of oldbies that are bothered by the quote thi= ng were doing the same conflation as I was. > > --- > > .lorx. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.