From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDWiOzkBBoEYwD-NA@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 23 00:40:24 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OygPj-00063D-59; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 00:40:23 -0700 Received: by qyk12 with SMTP id 12sf2537412qyk.16 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 00:40:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received :received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=AuywRQ3FlX7WZP92ZDIjoe/Czp4gHMbW053FCtfFTmM=; b=BIUdJXH9Zn0Bo9dsAwaX0pBj0B9513wX5U+PPykUUtol5MsH/AN5JFgoEY5tx3pmci ndsyh5Befe0HEROENMXju9Ym7QfMaVuuFgM6Z0gz1T+Jke/Y4/HFP+0TPVMiJdG1Tf71 Aylcguvo6P6p7EjviXxlIkUoX+atIDveFJ7+k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=Jd5BTnlfjnLDQ8z0X5j6zI3Ta0v6tP7ODJu6GC8SqAvjbDXE6W05BGLILGZLt9hIsz EO7dhQWJ6caS0yBhzjMVCO5m8AvH81C0lw+vvedOQKrM8xlQon2tWCXh4tcTN9Y3C5Xy MAwRVcGTKFru2azz5SwAQ00sU4k2XdM2dKp6M= Received: by 10.224.2.194 with SMTP id 2mr178181qak.8.1285227606374; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 00:40:06 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.66.155 with SMTP id n27ls206807qai.5.p; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 00:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.3.3 with SMTP id 3mr175604qal.1.1285227605829; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 00:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.112.208 with SMTP id x16mr76060fap.25.1285206503758; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 18:48:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.112.208 with SMTP id x16mr76059fap.25.1285206503716; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 18:48:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f45.google.com (mail-bw0-f45.google.com [209.85.214.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id b13si55377fab.5.2010.09.22.18.48.22; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 18:48:22 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.45; Received: by bwz4 with SMTP id 4so1050495bwz.4 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 18:48:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.33.86 with SMTP id g22mr736659bkd.26.1285206502448; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 18:48:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.153.219 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 18:48:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20100923013302.GA16099@koganusan.lb.shawcable.net> References: <20100923013302.GA16099@koganusan.lb.shawcable.net> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 21:48:22 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Quotation mark argument. From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00032555e4420a9ff30490e3759f --00032555e4420a9ff30490e3759f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think I agree with the main points of ... well, everyone but rlpowell towards the beginning. My only concern is that newbies will see things like {mi cusku <>} and think that << and >> have syntactic or semantic meaning and they really do have just exactly the same amount of meaning as a newline or tabs at the start of a paragraph. But I think that that concern can be addressed by giving newbies a smack-down the instant anyone sees evidence that they are mis-understanding= . ki'ai zoi thumbs-up zoi On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 9:33 PM, Brian Robertson < raposa.msscripting@gmail.com> wrote: > There was a fairly heated argument in #jbopre about the use of quotation > marks in xorxes' alis work. I've edited it down and am posting it here > to make the arguments public to everyone interested, and possibly quell > any open hatred for the use of quotes from saupre. > > --- > > <@rlpowell> Oh god you've got quote marks. >:| > * rlpowell isn't sure he's OK with hosting that under his own name. > < Hugglesworth> rlpowell: why such brutal hatred for quote marks? > * Hugglesworth knows we've been over this before; long ago. He just > forgets > <@rlpowell> Hugglesworth: Audio-visual isomorphism > <@rlpowell> Which I really, *really* like. > <@rlpowell> If you're going to replace lu/li'u and say "left-quote is > pronounced lu in this work", .... enh. I can live. > <@rlpowell> But to have them *in addition* breaks one of my favorite part= s > of the language. > < tomoj> in addition seems the only good way to me > <@rlpowell> Because {.i ca bo ca'o cusku =ABlu .oi} *in Lojban* is {.i ca= bo > ca'o cusku zunle bu lu .oi}, OSLT > <@rlpowell> tomoj: Does that explain? > < tomoj> I'd rather just ignore all non-lojban characters > <@rlpowell> I don't much like them instead-of either, because I really li= ke > Lojban's simple morphology. > <@rlpowell> But in-addition-to ... just no. > <@rlpowell> tomoj: Then what happens to zoi? > < tomoj> except when quoted > <@rlpowell> I may just be being crotchety, but I *really* like audio-visu= al > isomorphism, and it upsets me when people fuck with it. > <@rlpowell> xorxes: I wasn't really kidding. > < tomoj> it's already fucked up > < tomoj> speech has many features which aren't represented in lojban text > <@rlpowell> tomoj: Only in extremely rare cases involving zoi, as far as = I > know. > <@rlpowell> tomoj: Umm. Not Lojban as I speak it. > < tomoj> to aid in verbal understanding for example > < tomoj> the rate at which you say the words, for example > < xorxes> It makes the text much more readable > < jcowan> rlpowell: And yet you don't object to indentation/blank lines > between paragraphs, or non-essential spaces between words? > <@rlpowell> Not to me. And I hate that kind of quote mark anyways. > < tomoj> similarly we might use features in text which aren't necessarily > represented in speech > <@rlpowell> jcowan: THose don't communicate any information. > < tomoj> neither do these > <@rlpowell> Same with tomoj's speech speed. > < tomoj> that's why in-addition-to is good > < jcowan> Of course they do. Paragraph marking duplicates ni'o. > < tomoj> in-addition-to means you never use a =AB to mean anything at all > < tomoj> it's just there to aid the eye when reading > < jcowan> Exactly. > < xorxes> they are like the pictures in the middle of the text > < tomoj> if you make a mistake doing in-addition-to and write "=AB" where= you > want "=ABlu", your text is ungrammatical > < jcowan> tomoj: Or else it isn't, which is worse. > < Hugglesworth> rlpowell: do you have a problem with the paragraph tabs? > <@rlpowell> jcowan: You're right; if my complaint is that I can't speak o= ut > this text to a Lojbanist and get the same text back (which is exactly me > complaint), I need to include thinsg like blank lines in said complaining= , > or STFU. And indentation at the start of paragraphs, and suchlike. > <@rlpowell> Hugglesworth: ^^ you too > <@rlpowell> < xorxes> they are like the pictures in the middle of the tex= t > -- and that. > <@rlpowell> So yeah, I have a problem, in that I'm conflating "sounds mus= t > always communicate the same basic information as words" with "the text mu= st > come back identical". > < jcowan> Another case of non-exact-isomorphism is digits vs. digit words= , > and yet a mathematical work in Lojban that doesn't have any digits would = be > a huge pain. > <@rlpowell> jcowan: Explain? > <@rlpowell> Oh, NM; I get it. > <@rlpowell> Yeah. > <@rlpowell> Objection withdrawn. > <@rlpowell> I think someone should condense this and post it to the list, > because I suspect that a lot of oldbies that are bothered by the quote th= ing > were doing the same conflation as I was. > > --- > > .lorx. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --00032555e4420a9ff30490e3759f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think I agree with the main points of ... well, everyone but rlpowell tow= ards the beginning.

My only concern is that newbies will= see things like {mi cusku <<lu coi ro do li'u>>} and think= that << and >> have syntactic or semantic meaning and they rea= lly do have just exactly the same amount of meaning as a newline or tabs at= the start of a paragraph.

But I think that that concern can be addressed by givin= g newbies a smack-down the instant anyone sees evidence that they are mis-u= nderstanding.

ki'ai zoi thumbs-up zoi

On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 9:33 PM, Brian Robertson= <rapo= sa.msscripting@gmail.com> wrote:
There was a fairly heated argument in #jbopre about the use of quotation marks in xorxes' alis work. I've edited it down and am posting it h= ere
to make the arguments public to everyone interested, and possibly quell
any open hatred for the use of quotes from saupre.

---

<@rlpowell> Oh god you've got quote marks. =A0>:|
=A0* rlpowell isn't sure he's OK with hosting that under his own na= me.
< Hugglesworth> rlpowell: why such brutal hatred for quote marks?
=A0* Hugglesworth knows we've been over this before; long ago. He just = forgets
<@rlpowell> Hugglesworth: Audio-visual isomorphism
<@rlpowell> Which I really, *really* like.
<@rlpowell> If you're going to replace lu/li'u and say "= left-quote is pronounced lu in this work", .... enh. =A0I can live. <@rlpowell> But to have them *in addition* breaks one of my favorite = parts of the language.
< tomoj> in addition seems the only good way to me
<@rlpowell> Because {.i ca bo ca'o cusku =ABlu .oi} *in Lojban* i= s {.i ca bo ca'o cusku zunle bu lu .oi}, OSLT
<@rlpowell> tomoj: Does that explain?
< tomoj> I'd rather just ignore all non-lojban characters
<@rlpowell> I don't much like them instead-of either, because I r= eally like Lojban's simple morphology.
<@rlpowell> But in-addition-to ... just no.
<@rlpowell> tomoj: Then what happens to zoi?
< tomoj> except when quoted
<@rlpowell> I may just be being crotchety, but I *really* like audio-= visual isomorphism, and it upsets me when people fuck with it.
<@rlpowell> xorxes: I wasn't really kidding.
< tomoj> it's already fucked up
< tomoj> speech has many features which aren't represented in loj= ban text
<@rlpowell> tomoj: Only in extremely rare cases involving zoi, as far= as I know.
<@rlpowell> tomoj: Umm. =A0Not Lojban as I speak it.
< tomoj> to aid in verbal understanding for example
< tomoj> the rate at which you say the words, for example
< xorxes> It makes the text much more readable
< jcowan> rlpowell: And yet you don't object to indentation/blank= lines between paragraphs, or non-essential spaces between words?
<@rlpowell> Not to me. =A0And I hate that kind of quote mark anyways.=
< tomoj> similarly we might use features in text which aren't nec= essarily represented in speech
<@rlpowell> jcowan: THose don't communicate any information.
< tomoj> neither do these
<@rlpowell> Same with tomoj's speech speed.
< tomoj> that's why in-addition-to is good
< jcowan> Of course they do. =A0Paragraph marking duplicates ni'o= .
< tomoj> in-addition-to means you never use a =AB to mean anything at= all
< tomoj> it's just there to aid the eye when reading
< jcowan> Exactly.
< xorxes> they are like the pictures in the middle of the text
< tomoj> if you make a mistake doing in-addition-to and write "= =AB" where you want "=ABlu", your text is ungrammatical
< jcowan> tomoj: Or else it isn't, which is worse.
< Hugglesworth> rlpowell: do you have a problem with the paragraph ta= bs?
<@rlpowell> jcowan: You're right; if my complaint is that I can&#= 39;t speak out this text to a Lojbanist and get the same text back (which i= s exactly me complaint), I need to include thinsg like blank lines in said = complaining, or STFU. =A0And indentation at the start of paragraphs, and su= chlike.
<@rlpowell> Hugglesworth: ^^ you too
<@rlpowell> < xorxes> they are like the pictures in the middle = of the text -- and that.
<@rlpowell> So yeah, I have a problem, in that I'm conflating &qu= ot;sounds must always communicate the same basic information as words"= with "the text must come back identical".
< jcowan> Another case of non-exact-isomorphism is digits vs. digit w= ords, and yet a mathematical work in Lojban that doesn't have any digit= s would be a huge pain.
<@rlpowell> jcowan: Explain?
<@rlpowell> Oh, NM; I get it.
<@rlpowell> Yeah.
<@rlpowell> Objection withdrawn.
<@rlpowell> I think someone should condense this and post it to the l= ist, because I suspect that a lot of oldbies that are bothered by the quote= thing were doing the same conflation as I was.

---

.lorx.

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