From lojban+bncCNTM-bHNDhD-v-7kBBoEugUb7w@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 23 11:44:45 2010 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OyqmQ-0003nX-Nb; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:44:44 -0700 Received: by qwi4 with SMTP id 4sf3952061qwi.16 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:44:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:date:from:to:subject :in-reply-to:message-id:references:user-agent:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=a2B5M+YTa9AxKSUXP8aWoEcqytxEbKiMlaHD5R9wB8s=; b=EPyzoO3Fl98DWIPaSSaZIBiG3DWJQi9MFRP/PWpKCve9WvIVoLGq5G/GH3jvNp2WxD eVqVuOoqmz81/15s0MSfoBEI/aSprlqfAKx1Ycqyq/LpPLJ85+XKx8yIOKX13jiE3w2z nEBqcFfrFU1XacaE9Cn+arEZUY+GcnckGcBiw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to :message-id:references:user-agent:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=tTwbsaUh+Q7FMBK8/+HJZ8L8bPyzHKTP+cUt2ciuA5Jsz7q1pLU0hRHttdCux8coLa r6kFVh67U/TNrRhEZWm1kzewi4LXBYdBeYYhqmkpyJMc/wEtWd8qfHx04XR2KzBaAhYW /X8VF7sms+v9u9Bqs8uTXxmBWNls5PGaSkDho= Received: by 10.224.64.87 with SMTP id d23mr277728qai.2.1285267454692; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:44:14 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.100.138 with SMTP id y10ls345798qan.7.p; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.29.16 with SMTP id o16mr277024qac.4.1285267453835; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.36.73 with SMTP id s9mr337806ibd.14.1285266648971; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.36.73 with SMTP id s9mr337805ibd.14.1285266648941; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cec.wustl.edu (express.cec.wustl.edu [128.252.21.16]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id e25si720870ibk.7.2010.09.23.11.30.48; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 128.252.21.16 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of adam@pubcrawler.org) client-ip=128.252.21.16; Received: from grid.cec.wustl.edu (grid.cec.wustl.edu [128.252.20.97]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.cec.wustl.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A94341E8052; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 13:30:48 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 13:30:48 -0500 (CDT) From: "Adam D. Lopresto" To: lojban google groups Subject: Re: [lojban] Quotation mark argument. In-Reply-To: <20100923013302.GA16099@koganusan.lb.shawcable.net> Message-ID: References: <20100923013302.GA16099@koganusan.lb.shawcable.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (LRH 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: adam@pubcrawler.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 128.252.21.16 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of adam@pubcrawler.org) smtp.mail=adam@pubcrawler.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To summarize briefly, audio-visual isomorphism is not the idea that we can always translate between text and audio with no loss of detail, because there are many free variations in both forms, which are impossible to render in the other. Instead, to me at least, audio-visual isomorphism is this: 1) Lojban is fundamentally a sequence of *words* in the abstract. There is no meaning to a text that is not derived from those words. 2) A Lojban orthography is a relation mapping every sequences of Lojban words into at least one sequence of characters. It is possible for an orthography to permit free variation. For instance, {.imibroda}, {.i mi broda}, and {.imiBROda} (among others) are all valid renderings under the standard orthography of the same sequence of Lojban words. No meaning is imparted from which choice is made among free variants. 3) For a given orthography, there is an interpretation convention such that any given sequence of characters resolves to at most one sequence of Lojban words (zero if the characters are not a valid lojban text). All of the character sequences listed in the example above resolve to the same sequence of words. Since meaning attaches to the sequence of *words* alone, no meaning is lost in this interpretation process. 4) Similar to the orthography in 2), there is a pronunciation standard such that any given sequence of Lojban words can be pronounced in at least one way. (With free variations existing in permitted allophones, tone, length of pauses, inclusion or exclusion of optional pauses, etc). 5) Any sequence of sounds can be interpreted as at most one sequence of Lojban words. So we can convert between text and speech, but only through the sequence of words. No meaning is gained or lost in the process, but not all features of one representation are preserved in the transformation. I strongly favor orthographies that use punctuation (if at all) in addition to, no in place of, words. For interpretation, I treat all non-alphanumeric characters (aside from dot, comma, and apostrophe) as whitespace, and the choice of how much and what sort of white space is included where it is permitted (space(s), tabs, newlines, paragraph markers, and things like quotation marks) does not affect the meaning. On Wed, 22 Sep 2010, Brian Robertson wrote: > There was a fairly heated argument in #jbopre about the use of quotation > marks in xorxes' alis work. I've edited it down and am posting it here > to make the arguments public to everyone interested, and possibly quell > any open hatred for the use of quotes from saupre. > > --- > > <@rlpowell> Oh god you've got quote marks. >:| > * rlpowell isn't sure he's OK with hosting that under his own name. > < Hugglesworth> rlpowell: why such brutal hatred for quote marks? > * Hugglesworth knows we've been over this before; long ago. He just forge= ts > <@rlpowell> Hugglesworth: Audio-visual isomorphism > <@rlpowell> Which I really, *really* like. > <@rlpowell> If you're going to replace lu/li'u and say "left-quote is pro= nounced lu in this work", .... enh. I can live. > <@rlpowell> But to have them *in addition* breaks one of my favorite part= s of the language. > < tomoj> in addition seems the only good way to me > <@rlpowell> Because {.i ca bo ca'o cusku =ABlu .oi} *in Lojban* is {.i ca= bo ca'o cusku zunle bu lu .oi}, OSLT > <@rlpowell> tomoj: Does that explain? > < tomoj> I'd rather just ignore all non-lojban characters > <@rlpowell> I don't much like them instead-of either, because I really li= ke Lojban's simple morphology. > <@rlpowell> But in-addition-to ... just no. > <@rlpowell> tomoj: Then what happens to zoi? > < tomoj> except when quoted > <@rlpowell> I may just be being crotchety, but I *really* like audio-visu= al isomorphism, and it upsets me when people fuck with it. > <@rlpowell> xorxes: I wasn't really kidding. > < tomoj> it's already fucked up > < tomoj> speech has many features which aren't represented in lojban text > <@rlpowell> tomoj: Only in extremely rare cases involving zoi, as far as = I know. > <@rlpowell> tomoj: Umm. Not Lojban as I speak it. > < tomoj> to aid in verbal understanding for example > < tomoj> the rate at which you say the words, for example > < xorxes> It makes the text much more readable > < jcowan> rlpowell: And yet you don't object to indentation/blank lines b= etween paragraphs, or non-essential spaces between words? > <@rlpowell> Not to me. And I hate that kind of quote mark anyways. > < tomoj> similarly we might use features in text which aren't necessarily= represented in speech > <@rlpowell> jcowan: THose don't communicate any information. > < tomoj> neither do these > <@rlpowell> Same with tomoj's speech speed. > < tomoj> that's why in-addition-to is good > < jcowan> Of course they do. Paragraph marking duplicates ni'o. > < tomoj> in-addition-to means you never use a =AB to mean anything at all > < tomoj> it's just there to aid the eye when reading > < jcowan> Exactly. > < xorxes> they are like the pictures in the middle of the text > < tomoj> if you make a mistake doing in-addition-to and write "=AB" where= you want "=ABlu", your text is ungrammatical > < jcowan> tomoj: Or else it isn't, which is worse. > < Hugglesworth> rlpowell: do you have a problem with the paragraph tabs? > <@rlpowell> jcowan: You're right; if my complaint is that I can't speak o= ut this text to a Lojbanist and get the same text back (which is exactly me= complaint), I need to include thinsg like blank lines in said complaining,= or STFU. And indentation at the start of paragraphs, and suchlike. > <@rlpowell> Hugglesworth: ^^ you too > <@rlpowell> < xorxes> they are like the pictures in the middle of the tex= t -- and that. > <@rlpowell> So yeah, I have a problem, in that I'm conflating "sounds mus= t always communicate the same basic information as words" with "the text mu= st come back identical". > < jcowan> Another case of non-exact-isomorphism is digits vs. digit words= , and yet a mathematical work in Lojban that doesn't have any digits would = be a huge pain. > <@rlpowell> jcowan: Explain? > <@rlpowell> Oh, NM; I get it. > <@rlpowell> Yeah. > <@rlpowell> Objection withdrawn. > <@rlpowell> I think someone should condense this and post it to the list,= because I suspect that a lot of oldbies that are bothered by the quote thi= ng were doing the same conflation as I was. > > --- > > .lorx. > > --=20 Adam Lopresto http://cec.wustl.edu/~adam/ He spoke with the wisdom that can only come from experience, like a guy who went blind because he looked at a solar eclipse without one of those boxes with a pinhole in it and now goes around the country speaking at high schools about the dangers of looking at a solar eclipse without one of those boxes with a pinhole in it. (Joseph Romm, Washington) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.