From lojban+bncCIGHwM2rDhD9v-7kBBoEaVtm6Q@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 23 11:44:47 2010 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OyqmQ-0003nU-5a; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:44:46 -0700 Received: by qwi4 with SMTP id 4sf3952058qwi.16 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:44:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:received:received:date:from :to:subject:message-id:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition:content-transfer-encoding; bh=tNLq9HQc3LKleBpG4vVclI1ENqvR/QIgtzLZ1MO66tc=; b=JuZYglCgK7qFVzUW1wFW07DOwYK3KWiD9+NsSBZk6Qny8/fTwW/gcY6PmVkIvkPYgf ys+k1SyJYoeEZVRUUFTi4DfWbbWr6fqrw6irDk4jGLkRGcPQ29cpi13Eue7AW5YzVjWE JHfGatwyEFpUOoNydofsDx5Bm3OO6Y1YU5vt4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition :content-transfer-encoding; b=1u9L9E+4iMsIypGW2ROQhrzy6cC8O03vnIzGCpknvWUzF/NeoC4l2gCeAGuoV4A3GZ auG/WIaCW7INiqnGWVQOpZQiz2mbPVnNWLCPZhsxJ8k0R74yVe4NGGVeFOBy9BfdIzfQ 3MrpuYQ85qmNHTM0UIWmlKf/Xrn6Ay4NSzd6M= Received: by 10.224.64.150 with SMTP id e22mr277050qai.21.1285267453892; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:44:13 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.66.218 with SMTP id o26ls348084qai.3.p; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.46.15 with SMTP id h15mr260502qaf.5.1285267453463; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.92.16 with SMTP id p16mr347219wab.36.1285258268238; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 09:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.92.16 with SMTP id p16mr347218wab.36.1285258268191; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 09:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pw0-f65.google.com (mail-pw0-f65.google.com [209.85.160.65]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id j18si1221765wan.1.2010.09.23.09.11.08; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 09:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 209.85.160.65 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) client-ip=209.85.160.65; Received: by mail-pw0-f65.google.com with SMTP id 1so276124pwi.8 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 09:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.109.10 with SMTP id h10mr2073594wac.53.1285258267498; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 09:11:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunflowerriver.org (173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.10.243.253]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e18sm273309vcf.12.2010.09.23.09.11.03 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 23 Sep 2010 09:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:10:57 -0600 From: Alan Post To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Quotation mark argument. Message-ID: <20100923161057.GA11667@alice.local> References: <20100923013302.GA16099@koganusan.lb.shawcable.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20100923013302.GA16099@koganusan.lb.shawcable.net> X-Original-Sender: alanpost@sunflowerriver.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 209.85.160.65 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) smtp.mail=alanpost@sunflowerriver.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you for posting this. I went through the same process rlpowell did, when I read this. I've been interested int the many recent dicussions about lojban typography, and have attempted to summarize them here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=3Dtypography It seems we've approaching some manner of consensus on what constitutes good Lojban typography, and I've attempted to express that in the above page. This page is very rough, and include unfinished sections and open questions. I hope I've capture the spirit of where most of us are at, though I haven't included the justifications for these decisions, including a further summary of the conclusion of this IRC thread. I'd love for you to contribute what you know and like to this page. -Alan On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 07:33:02PM -0600, Brian Robertson wrote: > There was a fairly heated argument in #jbopre about the use of quotation > marks in xorxes' alis work. I've edited it down and am posting it here > to make the arguments public to everyone interested, and possibly quell > any open hatred for the use of quotes from saupre. >=20 > --- >=20 > <@rlpowell> Oh god you've got quote marks. >:| > * rlpowell isn't sure he's OK with hosting that under his own name. > < Hugglesworth> rlpowell: why such brutal hatred for quote marks? > * Hugglesworth knows we've been over this before; long ago. He just forg= ets > <@rlpowell> Hugglesworth: Audio-visual isomorphism > <@rlpowell> Which I really, *really* like. > <@rlpowell> If you're going to replace lu/li'u and say "left-quote is pro= nounced lu in this work", .... enh. I can live. > <@rlpowell> But to have them *in addition* breaks one of my favorite part= s of the language. > < tomoj> in addition seems the only good way to me > <@rlpowell> Because {.i ca bo ca'o cusku =ABlu .oi} *in Lojban* is {.i ca= bo ca'o cusku zunle bu lu .oi}, OSLT > <@rlpowell> tomoj: Does that explain? > < tomoj> I'd rather just ignore all non-lojban characters > <@rlpowell> I don't much like them instead-of either, because I really li= ke Lojban's simple morphology. > <@rlpowell> But in-addition-to ... just no. > <@rlpowell> tomoj: Then what happens to zoi? > < tomoj> except when quoted > <@rlpowell> I may just be being crotchety, but I *really* like audio-visu= al isomorphism, and it upsets me when people fuck with it. > <@rlpowell> xorxes: I wasn't really kidding. > < tomoj> it's already fucked up > < tomoj> speech has many features which aren't represented in lojban text > <@rlpowell> tomoj: Only in extremely rare cases involving zoi, as far as = I know. > <@rlpowell> tomoj: Umm. Not Lojban as I speak it. > < tomoj> to aid in verbal understanding for example > < tomoj> the rate at which you say the words, for example > < xorxes> It makes the text much more readable > < jcowan> rlpowell: And yet you don't object to indentation/blank lines b= etween paragraphs, or non-essential spaces between words? > <@rlpowell> Not to me. And I hate that kind of quote mark anyways. > < tomoj> similarly we might use features in text which aren't necessarily= represented in speech > <@rlpowell> jcowan: THose don't communicate any information. > < tomoj> neither do these > <@rlpowell> Same with tomoj's speech speed. > < tomoj> that's why in-addition-to is good > < jcowan> Of course they do. Paragraph marking duplicates ni'o. > < tomoj> in-addition-to means you never use a =AB to mean anything at all > < tomoj> it's just there to aid the eye when reading > < jcowan> Exactly. > < xorxes> they are like the pictures in the middle of the text > < tomoj> if you make a mistake doing in-addition-to and write "=AB" where= you want "=ABlu", your text is ungrammatical > < jcowan> tomoj: Or else it isn't, which is worse. > < Hugglesworth> rlpowell: do you have a problem with the paragraph tabs? > <@rlpowell> jcowan: You're right; if my complaint is that I can't speak o= ut this text to a Lojbanist and get the same text back (which is exactly me= complaint), I need to include thinsg like blank lines in said complaining,= or STFU. And indentation at the start of paragraphs, and suchlike. > <@rlpowell> Hugglesworth: ^^ you too > <@rlpowell> < xorxes> they are like the pictures in the middle of the tex= t -- and that. > <@rlpowell> So yeah, I have a problem, in that I'm conflating "sounds mus= t always communicate the same basic information as words" with "the text mu= st come back identical". > < jcowan> Another case of non-exact-isomorphism is digits vs. digit words= , and yet a mathematical work in Lojban that doesn't have any digits would = be a huge pain. > <@rlpowell> jcowan: Explain? > <@rlpowell> Oh, NM; I get it. > <@rlpowell> Yeah. > <@rlpowell> Objection withdrawn. > <@rlpowell> I think someone should condense this and post it to the list,= because I suspect that a lot of oldbies that are bothered by the quote thi= ng were doing the same conflation as I was. >=20 > --- >=20 > .lorx. >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. >=20 --=20 .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.