From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRD0qI7kBBoE_iZZxQ@googlegroups.com Sun Sep 05 06:00:53 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OsEq0-0004uF-Uf; Sun, 05 Sep 2010 06:00:52 -0700 Received: by wwf26 with SMTP id 26sf893242wwf.16 for ; Sun, 05 Sep 2010 06:00:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=kK1lRXBR62AoX1cLea79USFoNAxVH4nTGhOxvnXFrGI=; b=k31x8y9jlWGcYqHGBhegljHUmsEepb27VMay/jHGYeKq+3Nhjy4me5I3cOJZBPdmbY Fnuwg3eZVvCgO3vrKahoW54fQBwH9m/ZwSYDlnL0EI4VEm6uKL+ausY69kTyWP5DB89q TI9qVI7wdUpnIB+AHHhxKvxuRDCauQPFpQois= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=CUrQU+Ea/xG7p96UiFQzX/bPlsfQPDhXYzIQOWiOhWTfANbz7aUlSGopfdEO41xTXj Ws3Vnm+vypgPULehBuy/shKBFVCoiLrJqbZZO5gDkVNpi/1DsT5JFWwIB40BZ2BVj0y9 E/jE1+doeIu6B+ycYYtLpPWvav1d1BEw/q7k0= Received: by 10.216.145.226 with SMTP id p76mr494756wej.18.1283691636367; Sun, 05 Sep 2010 06:00:36 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.237.165 with SMTP id y37ls1319325weq.1.p; Sun, 05 Sep 2010 06:00:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.178.201 with SMTP id f51mr155475wem.8.1283691635169; Sun, 05 Sep 2010 06:00:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.178.201 with SMTP id f51mr155474wem.8.1283691635137; Sun, 05 Sep 2010 06:00:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f51.google.com (mail-ww0-f51.google.com [74.125.82.51]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id o46si1394968weq.2.2010.09.05.06.00.34; Sun, 05 Sep 2010 06:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.51 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.51; Received: by wwi18 with SMTP id 18so957944wwi.32 for ; Sun, 05 Sep 2010 06:00:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.135.18 with SMTP id l18mr1630868wbt.120.1283691633936; Sun, 05 Sep 2010 06:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.145.147 with HTTP; Sun, 5 Sep 2010 06:00:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201009050039.41217.phma@phma.optus.nu> References: <022fd822-ce8f-4d77-84c5-f828612bb81f@x42g2000yqx.googlegroups.com> <201009042005.56862.phma@phma.optus.nu> <201009050039.41217.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 10:00:33 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] .i ki'u lo cribe mi na sipna From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.51 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 1:39 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Sunday 05 September 2010 00:02:10 Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: >> So you can't ask for one motive for both? Normally the terms before >> the conjunction have scope over the conjunction. > > "ma" refers to the same thing in both bridi because it was only a single = "ma" > before expanding. If they were originally two sentences, they would ask f= or > two answers. That doesn't really solve the problem. Let's leave the matter of questions aside for the moment. Consider: term ge bridi-tail_1 gi bridi-tail_2 I contend that this always expands to: term zo'u ge bridi_1 gi bridi_2 where bridi_1 and bridi_2 are just bridi-tail_1 and bridi-tail_2 with possibly a variable added to represent "term" in the right slot if necessary. "term" could be any term: "su'o da", "na ku", "mu'i ma", whatever. Examples: su'o prenu ge lojbo gi gleki =3D su'o da poi prenu zo'u ge da lojbo gi da gleki =3D "Some people are both lojbanists and happy." NOT=3D "Some people are lojbanists and some people are happy." no prenu ge lojbo gi bebna =3D no da poi prenu zo'u ge da lojbo gi da bebna =3D "No person is both lojbanist and silly." NOT=3D "No person is lojbanist and no person is silly." So far so good. If we add na to the bridi-tail, we have: su'o prenu ge na lojbo gi na gleki =3D su'o da poi prenu zo'u ge da na lojbo gi da na gleki =3D "Some people are neither lojbanists nor happy." NOT=3D "Some people are not lojbanists and some people are not happy." NOR=3D "It is not the case that some people are lojbanists and it is not the case that some people are happy." But: su'o prenu ge na lojbo gi na gleki =3D su'o prenu na lojbo gi'e na gleki and for some weird unfathomable reason, CLL wants: su'o prenu na lojbo =3D "It is not the case that some people are lojbanists." instead of the expected: su'o prenu na lojbo =3D "Some people are not lojbanists." But how do you reconcile these two: su'o prenu na lojbo =3D "It is not the case that some people are lojbanists." su'o prenu na lojbo gi'e na gleki =3D "Some people are neither lojbanists nor happy." mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.