From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhD7zpDkBBoEK70DOA@googlegroups.com Sun Sep 05 16:28:16 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OsOd8-0001Lv-7M; Sun, 05 Sep 2010 16:28:15 -0700 Received: by wyb35 with SMTP id 35sf939878wyb.16 for ; Sun, 05 Sep 2010 16:28:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=cSQaq0ku9cRuISu8ljDwcpE5TAU80CPqCU1qqeB8BSY=; b=MS5zoDg+Zu8jdP9+x3r2JcMhaclwjbG31eBUx/nStcLhKzQh0EppwA3se8nVLNvkkc jyi8slUEuyPbytFBUtKPelxdT303Lc0iiigFWKafU8NEQNDUT2Pl52wJdK154DfANUkD Rkgu91sF1WSjhPL5/ml6rGc8fALJgwj+vcpfg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=OcQbdNhwOyebLsyl1YkNAhTJx3htA21bcLXLvjUXMMmTxunNbpc0+MOtQiaiRK+XQ2 R2zryovwiXfguuhNd9wpkhEGXyU7DfWxLlnJK7HkTT973yqZHENfraXSlIsOTQhlB+L3 Y8bPeAyXffrnhKhIWfvSjR75eQf6sPDxeBzvI= Received: by 10.216.145.9 with SMTP id o9mr546292wej.0.1283729275318; Sun, 05 Sep 2010 16:27:55 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.198.162 with SMTP id v34ls1458185wen.3.p; Sun, 05 Sep 2010 16:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.178.140 with SMTP id f12mr163728wem.13.1283729273871; Sun, 05 Sep 2010 16:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.178.140 with SMTP id f12mr163726wem.13.1283729273196; Sun, 05 Sep 2010 16:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f176.google.com (mail-wy0-f176.google.com [74.125.82.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id o46si1581401weq.2.2010.09.05.16.27.52; Sun, 05 Sep 2010 16:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.176; Received: by wyf23 with SMTP id 23so5123320wyf.35 for ; Sun, 05 Sep 2010 16:27:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.7.131 with SMTP id d3mr834159wbd.83.1283729271847; Sun, 05 Sep 2010 16:27:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.46.4 with HTTP; Sun, 5 Sep 2010 16:27:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <022fd822-ce8f-4d77-84c5-f828612bb81f@x42g2000yqx.googlegroups.com> <201009042005.56862.phma@phma.optus.nu> <201009050039.41217.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 17:27:51 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] .i ki'u lo cribe mi na sipna From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0022158c09653c7cec048f8b83f4 --0022158c09653c7cec048f8b83f4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/9/5 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 1:39 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > On Sunday 05 September 2010 00:02:10 Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > >> So you can't ask for one motive for both? Normally the terms before > >> the conjunction have scope over the conjunction. > > > > "ma" refers to the same thing in both bridi because it was only a singl= e > "ma" > > before expanding. If they were originally two sentences, they would ask > for > > two answers. > > That doesn't really solve the problem. Let's leave the matter of > questions aside for the moment. Consider: > > term ge bridi-tail_1 gi bridi-tail_2 > > I contend that this always expands to: > > term zo'u ge bridi_1 gi bridi_2 > > where bridi_1 and bridi_2 are just bridi-tail_1 and bridi-tail_2 with > possibly a variable added to represent "term" in the right slot if > necessary. > > "term" could be any term: "su'o da", "na ku", "mu'i ma", whatever. > > Examples: > > su'o prenu ge lojbo gi gleki > =3D su'o da poi prenu zo'u ge da lojbo gi da gleki > =3D "Some people are both lojbanists and happy." > NOT=3D "Some people are lojbanists and some people are happy." > > no prenu ge lojbo gi bebna > =3D no da poi prenu zo'u ge da lojbo gi da bebna > =3D "No person is both lojbanist and silly." > NOT=3D "No person is lojbanist and no person is silly." > > So far so good. If we add na to the bridi-tail, we have: > > su'o prenu ge na lojbo gi na gleki > =3D su'o da poi prenu zo'u ge da na lojbo gi da na gleki > =3D "Some people are neither lojbanists nor happy." > NOT=3D "Some people are not lojbanists and some people are not happy." > NOR=3D "It is not the case that some people are lojbanists and it is not > the case that some people are happy." > > But: > > su'o prenu ge na lojbo gi na gleki > =3D su'o prenu na lojbo gi'e na gleki > > and for some weird unfathomable reason, CLL wants: > > su'o prenu na lojbo > =3D "It is not the case that some people are lojbanists." > > instead of the expected: > > su'o prenu na lojbo > =3D "Some people are not lojbanists." > > But how do you reconcile these two: > > su'o prenu na lojbo > =3D "It is not the case that some people are lojbanists." > > su'o prenu na lojbo gi'e na gleki > =3D "Some people are neither lojbanists nor happy." > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > mi jdice lodu'u lo danfu pe la.xorxes. cu xauzma lo danfu pe la.cylyl. .ije mi ba pilno zo na lo ta tadji --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0022158c09653c7cec048f8b83f4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
2010/9/5 Jorge Llamb=EDas <= jjllambias@gmail.com>=
On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 1:39 AM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
> On Sunday 05 September 2010 00:02:10 Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote:
>> So you can't ask for one motive for both? Normally the terms b= efore
>> the conjunction have scope over the conjunction.
>
> "ma" refers to the same thing in both bridi because it was o= nly a single "ma"
> before expanding. If they were originally two sentences, they would as= k for
> two answers.

That doesn't really solve the problem. Let's leave the matter= of
questions aside for the moment. Consider:

=A0 =A0term ge bridi-tail_1 gi bridi-tail_2

I contend that this always expands to:

=A0 =A0term zo'u ge bridi_1 gi bridi_2

where bridi_1 and bridi_2 are just bridi-tail_1 and bridi-tail_2 with
possibly a variable added to represent "term" in the right slot i= f
necessary.

"term" could be any term: "su'o da", "na ku&qu= ot;, "mu'i ma", whatever.

Examples:

=A0 su'o prenu ge lojbo gi gleki
=3D su'o da poi prenu zo'u ge da lojbo gi da gleki
=3D "Some people are both lojbanists and happy."
NOT=3D "Some people are lojbanists and some people are happy."
=A0 no prenu ge lojbo gi bebna
=3D no da poi prenu zo'u ge da lojbo gi da bebna
=3D "No person is both lojbanist and silly."
NOT=3D "No person is lojbanist and no person is silly."

So far so good. If we add na to the bridi-tail, we have:

=A0 su'o prenu ge na lojbo gi na gleki
=3D su'o da poi prenu zo'u ge da na lojbo gi da na gleki
=3D "Some people are neither lojbanists nor happy."
NOT=3D "Some people are not lojbanists and some people are not happy.&= quot;
NOR=3D "It is not the case that some people are lojbanists and it is n= ot
the case that some people are happy."

But:

=A0 su'o prenu ge na lojbo gi na gleki
=3D su'o prenu na lojbo gi'e na gleki

and for some weird unfathomable reason, CLL wants:

=A0 su'o prenu na lojbo
=3D "It is not the case that some people are lojbanists."

instead of the expected:

=A0 su'o prenu na lojbo
=3D "Some people are not lojbanists."

But how do you reconcile these two:

=A0 su'o prenu na lojbo
=3D "It is not the case that some people are lojbanists."

=A0 su'o prenu na lojbo gi'e na gleki
=3D "Some people are neither lojbanists nor happy."

mu'o mi'e xorxes

mi jd= ice lodu'u lo danfu pe la.xorxes. cu xauzma lo danfu pe la.cylyl. .ije = mi ba pilno zo na lo ta tadji

--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu

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