From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBC7xvDkBBoEj6i_sQ@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 23 21:04:28 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OyzWK-0002MR-Ir; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 21:04:28 -0700 Received: by gxk9 with SMTP id 9sf1564883gxk.16 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 21:04:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=FSB/hq3iLF5+NDQoIw8Vfc9Kxab0adlUAAQvow0YipM=; b=ycXnjcxzgNHK50o70qoT7j5U3e6/PFgOOiLB0jMSDHBFg3Q9EUncmUSFhr078t6gYL yQ8Wdpsh5s3LYtDfwCT40tUzmiDrAeumoiREfqLcvMKpYUaRET4pyGfuCh0DQ+ac43hS WdaMLhdwVsdzT+/ySoOZIOihbFzvppj223F7Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=6Az5JqFveIECpXN3Dmd4n1GUK994knR6J/lfvwCumZKKorQ/XyDdfJ3EwP5eIBIsSM tHmc/Uiu3zKdxtzrRUdi/ehf7AGE+GWAblvjBW9X2VVPyeGd/YyQQQ8gLqUezwFckvAC IYiyLvjIu1/k3MXQjJO4iW2sRuvLfOFMbDnLM= Received: by 10.91.220.5 with SMTP id x5mr417425agq.51.1285301051907; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 21:04:11 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.123.203 with SMTP id q11ls616636ibr.2.p; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 21:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.6.211 with SMTP id b19mr345357icb.0.1285301050447; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 21:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.6.211 with SMTP id b19mr345356icb.0.1285301050413; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 21:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f175.google.com (mail-iw0-f175.google.com [209.85.214.175]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id db12si1038359ibb.5.2010.09.23.21.04.09; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 21:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.175; Received: by iwn2 with SMTP id 2so248079iwn.6 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 21:04:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.161.80 with SMTP id q16mr2888881ibx.142.1285301049184; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 21:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.48.79 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Sep 2010 21:04:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <8b9a0138-57ef-4e4c-a343-653b4f481e8d@g10g2000vbc.googlegroups.com> References: <38be6f52-9655-414a-adbe-8eb94559fd5f@e34g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <20100923101847.c398dcec.kfa@gmx.net> <8b9a0138-57ef-4e4c-a343-653b4f481e8d@g10g2000vbc.googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 00:04:09 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Alice - the xorlo version From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=005045013e157756360490f97800 --005045013e157756360490f97800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I'm also a native english speaker. The two english phrases "I tire of this" and "this has exhausted my interest" seem to mean the exact same thing. Also, this is kind of a bogus argument. I wouldn't argue english grammar with a swede who got his doctorate in English despite my having been brought up by american parents. In fact, I might be more biased by stupid usage that has only recently begun to have a bastardizing effect on the language. English does seem to do weird things with the concept of "tirendess". If we say that one can exhaust a resource by using it up, then being "tired of doing X" means that you've exhausted your "interest" dimension in some activity. I guess like if I've been running and get exhausted physically in my legs. I could move on to lifting weights with my arms, or stop altogether.... Yeah, interest-exhaustion seems like a black sheep in the dimensions in which one can be tired (ro'a, ro'e, ro'i, ro'o, ro'u, re'e that is). Sometimes talking about things generically helps... If I say "I am doing event X and that is sapping me of energy in emotional category Y. As I continue Xing, I eventually am depleted of Y-energy such that I must either cease Xing or exert myself differently such that a different aspect of my Y is being pulled from". Does this scenario read the same if X=physical training & Y = ro'o X=reading a book & Y = re'ei (my interest emotional category) X=attending a party & Y = ro'a On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 11:29 PM, Lindar wrote: > I don't mean to sound rude, but we are two native English speakers > (myself and Robin), and you are not. The meaning of the phrase, in my > native understanding of English, is that she grew bored with it. I > promise that it does not mean that she grew fatigued as a direct > result of being bored. "I tire of this." means "I grow bored with > this." or "This no longer interests me." Especially in this sense > considering what kind of person Alice is. One could definitely argue > that she could have grown tired as an indirect result of being bored > (boredom leads to depression, depression leads to stress, stress leads > to physical fatigue, physical fatigue is {tatpi}), but that's not what > is being conveyed in the original English. One could also argue that > in certain instances, tiring of something could be annoyance, but this > is definitely not the case as it does not fit the situation at all. In > the sense that it's used, I believe it's a metaphorical extension, > which does not translate very well/at all into Lojban. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --005045013e157756360490f97800 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm also a native english speaker. =A0The two english phrases "I t= ire of this" and "this has exhausted my interest" seem to me= an the exact same thing. =A0Also, this is kind of a bogus argument. =A0I wo= uldn't argue english grammar with a swede who got his doctorate in Engl= ish despite my having been brought up by american parents. =A0In fact, I mi= ght be more biased by stupid usage that has only recently begun to have a b= astardizing effect on the language.

English does seem to do weird things with the concept of &qu= ot;tirendess". =A0If we say that one can exhaust a resource by using i= t up, then being "tired of doing X" means that you've exhaust= ed your "interest" dimension in some activity. =A0I guess like if= I've been running and get exhausted physically in my legs. =A0I could = move on to lifting weights with my arms, or stop altogether....

Yeah, interest-exhaustion seems like a black sheep in t= he dimensions in which one can be tired (ro'a, ro'e, ro'i, ro&#= 39;o, ro'u, re'e that is).

Sometimes talki= ng about things generically helps...

If I say "I am doing event X and that is sapping m= e of energy in emotional category Y. =A0As I continue Xing, I eventually am= depleted of Y-energy such that I must either cease Xing or exert myself di= fferently such that a different aspect of my Y is being pulled from".<= /div>

Does this scenario read the same if=A0
X=3Dph= ysical training =A0& Y =3D ro'o
X=3Dreading a book =A0 = =A0& Y =3D re'ei (my interest emotional category)
X=3Datt= ending a party & Y =3D ro'a

On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 11:2= 9 PM, Lindar <lindarthebard@yahoo.com> wrote:
I don't mean to sound rude, but we are two native English speakers
(myself and Robin), and you are not. The meaning of the phrase, in my
native understanding of English, is that she grew bored with it. I
promise that it does not mean that she grew fatigued as a direct
result of being bored. "I tire of this." means "I grow bored= with
this." or "This no longer interests me." Especially in this = sense
considering what kind of person Alice is. One could definitely argue
that she could have grown tired as an indirect result of being bored
(boredom leads to depression, depression leads to stress, stress leads
to physical fatigue, physical fatigue is {tatpi}), but that's not what<= br> is being conveyed in the original English. One could also argue that
in certain instances, tiring of something could be annoyance, but this
is definitely not the case as it does not fit the situation at all. In
the sense that it's used, I believe it's a metaphorical extension,<= br> which does not translate very well/at all into Lojban.

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