From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDdtPLkBBoEFsP14w@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 24 05:32:57 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Oz7SD-0003dK-Im; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 05:32:57 -0700 Received: by wyb40 with SMTP id 40sf625416wyb.16 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 05:32:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=08e9ZUgcoGygTpR1t9jN9MkfZs3HJtinuJF289eL1sk=; b=tRK+UIftyEknxwGWK2kJtSRZNwKWoaBTDRXaABxKxxbYXRexCReN10xb1o//jL51vH MXQNBdAm9Um/JPNK2Ov73Six4yw6J50JagxHV9jyhYolkVGxgHYXtuMeaZEGNWBqTat0 knpaZ593N00cfKiwMvX67Sm4Hz/FYBnVmQqMI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=tCj+jps4jYsXfAv4iq4N5kYP5htjhYgzxJcfIdYk3HCjIFeoqBm0ey12HTQVJWwq5W p4h/wAXvu992K//A72MRIW9AyLM65BWwxoHmM5bo0WrvOVZmEpxP38sqcgBDUcd6EfqL OnOtuviJa4YbJIq+89m4Lpkj14wdiIzZn4iyE= Received: by 10.216.145.165 with SMTP id p37mr620954wej.28.1285331549157; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 05:32:29 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.237.165 with SMTP id y37ls867068weq.1.p; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 05:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.178.201 with SMTP id f51mr154787wem.8.1285331546764; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 05:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.178.201 with SMTP id f51mr154785wem.8.1285331546713; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 05:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f47.google.com (mail-ww0-f47.google.com [74.125.82.47]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id o46si664300weq.10.2010.09.24.05.32.25; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 05:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.47 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.47; Received: by mail-ww0-f47.google.com with SMTP id 26so3386804wwf.28 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 05:32:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.156.196 with SMTP id y4mr2620107wbw.219.1285331545179; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 05:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.145.130 with HTTP; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 05:32:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <8b9a0138-57ef-4e4c-a343-653b4f481e8d@g10g2000vbc.googlegroups.com> References: <38be6f52-9655-414a-adbe-8eb94559fd5f@e34g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <20100923101847.c398dcec.kfa@gmx.net> <8b9a0138-57ef-4e4c-a343-653b4f481e8d@g10g2000vbc.googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 09:32:25 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Alice - the xorlo version From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.47 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Lindar wrote: > I don't mean to sound rude, but we are two native English speakers > (myself and Robin), and you are not. The meaning of the phrase, in my > native understanding of English, is that she grew bored with it. I don't think anyone is misunderstanding what the English says (Spanish "cansado" works basically the same as English "tired" in this respect, so rest assured that that is not the issue.) We are not arguing about what the English "tired of" means, that's clear enough. We are discussing whether or not the Lojban word "tatpi" has a meaning wide enough to go beyond pysical exhaustion or fatigue. > I > promise that it does not mean that she grew fatigued as a direct > result of being bored. I know that. She grew weary of having nothing to do. She wants that situation to stop. The question is not about what the English means, the question is about what "tatpi" means. Can it be used of an x2 that is still ongoing and that the x1 would want to stop, or can it only be used of things that are over and have left the x1 in a certain state. > "I tire of this." means "I grow bored with > this." or "This no longer interests me." Yes, more or less, among other things. > Especially in this sense > considering what kind of person Alice is. One could definitely argue > that she could have grown tired as an indirect result of being bored > (boredom leads to depression, depression leads to stress, stress leads > to physical fatigue, physical fatigue is {tatpi}), but that's not what > is being conveyed in the original English. Of course not, I totally agree with that. > One could also argue that > in certain instances, tiring of something could be annoyance, but this > is definitely not the case as it does not fit the situation at all. I would agree. She might be a little annoyed by the situation, but I too feel "fanza" is too strong here. She's just weary. >In > the sense that it's used, I believe it's a metaphorical extension, > which does not translate very well/at all into Lojban. That's what we are discussing. Does the Lojban "tatpi" cover this sense of the English "tired of" or not? Robin says that to him this sense, let's call it "exhaust of interest", is too unrelated to the "exhaust of strength" or even "exhaust of patience" senses to be covered by the same word in Lojban. I say they are related enough to be covered by the same word. The dispute is about how wide "tatpi" is, not about what English "tired of" means. mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.