From lojban+bncCIGHwM2rDhCiwPLkBBoELuk9TA@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 24 05:57:23 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Oz7q2-00050D-7g; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 05:57:23 -0700 Received: by yxs7 with SMTP id 7sf1656610yxs.16 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 05:57:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:date:from:to :subject:message-id:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition; bh=XNZd7E/M6x8y4/4cX2fEMZ8BdAxuoEVWngGRgUVVS5w=; b=HBKYE95tE+SdTY+QmqgFUsNltAFUMfqIPp80zwKZ/aikluI1f8u+9nEOUtAFzT5DQN TClsWBADeRSzidri591AULiakI5ahZitlwDQisFdno3KEsms5v/kkUcry6BOllvesccv wv0oRC1KWFHAclv41TdFLwegOELA8CcpS4abE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition; b=MeVgowIM5YOxL7uSxREJxMLh4i+GJK6GIrmn6faaTWEeX3mhVaVafZVUCPxDRm8AyG FwAiqFVqB0EU2Pue5lMtWWpqJVEMv+6EJhw7BYmQPfHtrnyHZs4B5VVL3tG58ndDMtwQ JCdPTzDaAxLkdWDQ4TtQvslEoCfM4FgcwRn7I= Received: by 10.91.107.14 with SMTP id j14mr463176agm.11.1285333026382; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 05:57:06 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.55.74 with SMTP id t10ls782742ibg.3.p; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 05:57:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.161.69 with SMTP id q5mr481319ibx.8.1285333025201; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 05:57:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.161.69 with SMTP id q5mr481318ibx.8.1285333025161; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 05:57:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f178.google.com (mail-iw0-f178.google.com [209.85.214.178]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id e25si1325307ibk.7.2010.09.24.05.57.04; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 05:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 209.85.214.178 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) client-ip=209.85.214.178; Received: by mail-iw0-f178.google.com with SMTP id 35so3269480iwn.37 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 05:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.35.202 with SMTP id q10mr3743950ibd.138.1285333024145; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 05:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunflowerriver.org ([209.234.140.58]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i6sm2322424iba.14.2010.09.24.05.56.58 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 24 Sep 2010 05:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 06:56:51 -0600 From: Alan Post To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Alice - the xorlo version Message-ID: <20100924125651.GA15012@alice.local> References: <38be6f52-9655-414a-adbe-8eb94559fd5f@e34g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <20100923101847.c398dcec.kfa@gmx.net> <8b9a0138-57ef-4e4c-a343-653b4f481e8d@g10g2000vbc.googlegroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8b9a0138-57ef-4e4c-a343-653b4f481e8d@g10g2000vbc.googlegroups.com> X-Original-Sender: alanpost@sunflowerriver.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 209.85.214.178 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) smtp.mail=alanpost@sunflowerriver.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 08:29:39PM -0700, Lindar wrote: > I don't mean to sound rude, but we are two native English speakers > (myself and Robin), and you are not. The meaning of the phrase, in my > native understanding of English, is that she grew bored with it. I > promise that it does not mean that she grew fatigued as a direct > result of being bored. "I tire of this." means "I grow bored with > this." or "This no longer interests me." Especially in this sense > considering what kind of person Alice is. One could definitely argue > that she could have grown tired as an indirect result of being bored > (boredom leads to depression, depression leads to stress, stress leads > to physical fatigue, physical fatigue is {tatpi}), but that's not what > is being conveyed in the original English. One could also argue that > in certain instances, tiring of something could be annoyance, but this > is definitely not the case as it does not fit the situation at all. In > the sense that it's used, I believe it's a metaphorical extension, > which does not translate very well/at all into Lojban. > I'm not directing this e-mail specifically at Lindar, but replying at this point in the thread seems as good as any. I can't be the only one that saw the "Bike Shed" thread start to get attention again: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=506636+517178+/usr/local/www/db/text/1999/freebsd-hackers/19991003.freebsd-hackers Parkinson shows how you can go in to the board of directors and get approval for building a multi-million or even billion dollar atomic power plant, but if you want to build a bike shed you will be tangled up in endless discussions. Parkinson explains that this is because an atomic plant is so vast, so expensive and so complicated that people cannot grasp it, and rather than try, they fall back on the assumption that somebody else checked all the details before it got this far. Richard P. Feynmann gives a couple of interesting, and very much to the point, examples relating to Los Alamos in his books. A bike shed on the other hand. Anyone can build one of those over a weekend, and still have time to watch the game on TV. So no matter how well prepared, no matter how reasonable you are with your proposal, somebody will seize the chance to show that he is doing his job, that he is paying attention, that he is *here*. The converstation so far is exclusively about bike sheds. I'd like to propose the following instead: http://www.liveingreatness.com/the-core-protocols/perfection-game.html Jorge has just given us a performance, and by definition it is the best answer we currently have. If you can't give his performance a 10, you have to explain what it would take to make it a 10. You can't withhold a 10 on the belief that something better will happen later, and you can't withhold a 10 on the basis of not liking it. Give it a 10 or make it a 10. -Alan -- .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.