From lojban+bncCL-Ey5qiChCH_fLkBBoEVhox9A@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 24 08:07:22 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Oz9rd-0004oH-3S; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 08:07:21 -0700 Received: by wwe15 with SMTP id 15sf660844wwe.16 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 08:06:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:sender :received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Fr9dAiFoEPwrQYcL1p1RTy+onJz3Kqws3eLy6zYU+M8=; b=i3MoFBbZBeGn6m4PQvr8YzIYMVuhHMRTsD2b7wwLZ0zi3FdzT4fpt5+azy2vndPIIC trCQFfvG4a6OWg+CJ5uiz5Ax9H8H4Yeqa57YGBi+Bk0TyBSgtps7qXjTu9mb8lpgIpP8 4EYMkcuN9wRzrLwbWM30w514S8BWlq+X6W8kw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=spzCLMdATq2N1bnC8dKVo+ASZ5oL8vBfBgiXkJUw9K94uns4ttIdBDPpGm5xCulVJV WtyBJGUCG1CT2FSxXDwjRdEtzq1EuzkeVP3gHwv+QleWOaeWgVYzk4wxy7RZAhXUj0yB FrL70e2q7QFOu0wp4iEkOjSKLhhedqNp4NlGY= Received: by 10.216.144.38 with SMTP id m38mr686087wej.14.1285340807434; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 08:06:47 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.213.81.7 with SMTP id v7ls941610ebk.3.p; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 08:06:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.10.4 with SMTP id n4mr1001613ebn.24.1285340805764; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 08:06:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.10.4 with SMTP id n4mr1001612ebn.24.1285340805734; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 08:06:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ew0-f54.google.com (mail-ew0-f54.google.com [209.85.215.54]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id r57si2316017eeh.1.2010.09.24.08.06.44; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 08:06:44 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of craigbdaniel@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.54 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.54; Received: by ewy22 with SMTP id 22so1156427ewy.41 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 08:06:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.2.74 with SMTP id 10mr339614ebi.45.1285340804492; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 08:06:44 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.92.193 with HTTP; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 08:06:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <38be6f52-9655-414a-adbe-8eb94559fd5f@e34g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <20100923101847.c398dcec.kfa@gmx.net> <8b9a0138-57ef-4e4c-a343-653b4f481e8d@g10g2000vbc.googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 11:06:44 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Alice - the xorlo version From: Craig Daniel To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: craigbdaniel@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of craigbdaniel@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.54 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=craigbdaniel@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/9/24 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Lindar wrote: >> I don't mean to sound rude, but we are two native English speakers >> (myself and Robin), and you are not. The meaning of the phrase, in my >> native understanding of English, is that she grew bored with it. > > I don't think anyone is misunderstanding what the English says > (Spanish "cansado" works basically the same as English "tired" in this > respect, so rest assured that that is not the issue.) We are not As a native English speaker who speaks enough Spanish to have worked as an interpreter: while semantics is the one field where I will not claim to ever have achieved native-speaker quality intuition, it is my understanding that "cansado" is an incredibly exact synonym for "tired." While translating from one language to another when neither is your native tongue is a dicey thing to get exactly right, I don't think it's likely at all that xorxes is misunderstanding the meaning of "tired." > arguing about what the English "tired of" means, that's clear enough. > We are discussing whether or not the Lojban word "tatpi" has a meaning > wide enough to go beyond pysical exhaustion or fatigue. I'd say "tatpi" unambiguously *can* go beyond physical exhaustion at least as far as mental exhaustion, and that is not under question as far as I can tell. Alice is not experiencing what I would normally call mental exhaustion, though, and the question is whether "tatpi" is broad enough to cover the experience she is having. I guess my answer (not that it's as relevant as those who use the language regularly; I was never fluent, and unfortunately my vocabulary isn't what it once was these days) would be that an unmodified "tatpi" will generally be taken in a sense that doesn't quite fit, and that the sentence as it stands is not going to be back-translated to the meaning Carroll intended, that tatpi still isn't wrong per se - but I might favor a tanru if I were the one doing the translation. (Said tanru would involve "tatpi" if it were me, because I associate "tatpi" with sleep in my mind even though one does not always lead to the other and I think it fits with the notion that right after being tatpi Alice very probably has a long and fascinating dream.) That said, this is probably only one of a thousand choices in the book that could be done several ways and for which quibbles could be raised with any of them; I figure the fact that I'd do it a little differently doesn't make the person who did the actual work wrong. - mi'e .kreig.daniyl. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.