From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhDzv_PkBBoEbGqWRw@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 24 10:29:41 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OzC5X-0002oj-Pg; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 10:29:41 -0700 Received: by gwb11 with SMTP id 11sf1742347gwb.16 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 10:29:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=7RqM6njvTZH+L2RnZOjMs5ybu+n5hdXgZlA2LE6ivJY=; b=aa+clqUw0Yp3yJrAUlGsrgTmvoO9TsztxGZHFEFdCUN0NKU8T59OXktT2/h5Evs7bP tBi30Q2k8QGwbF7NdIMw6QNoFeskEu3LIdH73teYKHwJI8zBdG8HtAbLPif6Cg/7wMyz wKdkkLFBnUqpKA7kBtzGXC46sDU5K3kakq20c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=F5Hji95hppCsXEO795fC/1Gwbuor1sNhNFMAUxP6cTEE15W8xtnkBEWCliW9bKprZ6 350xJC+n4SuB/6IKBNyjS/2avYT2bcG85B27BqQv0/SNwOGeyRajVYD2ePMY4hPwXm3Y VZ8BI6pY8d0rZzdz6CNexJDxr8a3u0fvr7amE= Received: by 10.101.107.1 with SMTP id j1mr142233anm.60.1285349363146; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 10:29:23 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.51.12 with SMTP id d12ls1316107agk.4.p; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 10:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.13.2 with SMTP id q2mr973934ybi.24.1285349361653; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 10:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.13.2 with SMTP id q2mr973933ybi.24.1285349361617; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 10:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw0-f48.google.com (mail-gw0-f48.google.com [74.125.83.48]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id v6si1779987ybe.0.2010.09.24.10.29.20; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 10:29:20 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.48 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.48; Received: by mail-gw0-f48.google.com with SMTP id 17so1538075gwb.35 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 10:29:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.48.32 with SMTP id v32mr5028038ybv.115.1285349360393; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 10:29:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.206.133 with HTTP; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 10:29:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201009241849.27524.jezuch@interia.pl> References: <201009241849.27524.jezuch@interia.pl> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 11:29:20 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Jbofi'e working From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.48 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd70bc609e120049104b853 --000e0cd70bc609e120049104b853 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Krzysztof Sobolewski w= rote: > Dnia pi=B1tek, 24 wrze=B6nia 2010 o 18:13:27 Jonathan Jones napisa=B3(a): > > > lu ma lojbo valsi zoi py.rodak.py li'u drani > > ki'anai ki'e > > > .i.ua mi facki > > > > Polish > > (culture) po'olska > > From the very beginning I was looking for Polish stuff among lojban words > and now I'm sad to find that there's not even a gismu for it! What's more= , > "polska" is a lujvo that means "colors of Polynesia" ;) > > > Polish > > (language) bangrpolska > > Yeah, but Polish is an inflected language and spelling it as "bangrpolski= " > (note the ending, from "j=EAzyk polski") was a kind of a political statem= ent > zo'osai On the other hand gugdrpolska is about right in that regard, unle= ss > you think of "pa=F1stwo polskie" (and if I was really, really mean, I wou= ld > say gugdrjetcpospolita) > > > (Above from jbovlaste) > > Polish > > (Polish language) banpu'olu > > > > (I believe this one is based on the ISO code.) > > Well, ISO code for Poland is pl or pol. The latter is a rafsi for polno, = as > I demonstrated above... > -- > Ecce Jezuch > "10 Com&ments": "God: Im #1. No pix, plz. Uz my name nicely. Day7holy. > Take care of mum&dad. Dont kill, scrU round, steal | lie. Keep yr hands > (&eyz) off wot isnt yrs!'" - Dziesi=EA=E6 przykaza=F1 w SMS-lang > Well, I have to say I am in agreement with your frustrations. Not long ago, someone brought up the fact that Lojban has cultural gismu, but not all cultures are represented, and that Lojban's cultural neutrality is endangered by this fact, and that the solution was all or nothing - either all cultures have a cultural gismu, or none. There was also a side point that the cultural gismu that /do/ exist are too generic, such as glico "x1 is English/pertains to English-speaking culture in aspect x2", which refers to Brits, U.S.Americans, Canadians, South Africans, Australians, and possibly more, or to go the other way 'round, ropno "x1 reflects European culture/nationality/geography/Indo-European languages in aspect x2", which refers to the culture and nationality and geography and language of a region. In response to this second point, and the fact that I felt "nothing" was both easier than "all" and actually possible (due to the fact that cultures by their very nature are constantly forming, changing, and dissolving), I created culturally neutral lujvo for the individual concepts of nationality, culture, etc.: Language : banra'a Culture : klura'a Community : cemra'a Religion : jdara'a Nationality : selgu'era'a Territory : tutra'a Someone else decided to go with "all" and made fu'ivla using ISO codes for all the countries, languages, etc., which is how banpu'olu came about, and considering the immense effort, time, and discussion spent in the ISO code-based fu'ivla making, I'm not surprised my words got lost in the shuffle. (By the way, I would appreciate jbopre following the links and approving th= e words, and I would even more appreciate them being used.) There's even a tiki-page about this whole fiasco: which actually pre-dates the group thread: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=3DBoo+to+cultural+gismu --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu d= o zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --000e0cd70bc609e120049104b853 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Krzysztof Sobo= lewski <jezuch@in= teria.pl> wrote:
Dnia pi=B1tek, 24 wrze=B6nia 2010 o 18:13:27 Jonathan Jones napisa=B3(a):

> lu ma lojbo valsi zoi py.rodak.py li'u drani

ki'anai ki'e

> .i.ua mi facki
>
> Polish
> (culture) po'olska

From the very beginning I was looking for Polish stuff among lojban w= ords and now I'm sad to find that there's not even a gismu for it! = What's more, "polska" is a lujvo that means "colors of P= olynesia" ;)

> Polish
> (language) bangrpolska

Yeah, but Polish is an inflected language and spelling it as "bangrpol= ski" (note the ending, from "j=EAzyk polski") was a kind of = a political statement zo'osai On the other hand gugdrpolska is about ri= ght in that regard, unless you think of "pa=F1stwo polskie" (and = if I was really, really mean, I would say gugdrjetcpospolita)

> (Above from jbovlaste)
> Polish
> (Polish language) banpu'olu
>
> =A0(I believe this one is based on the ISO code.)

Well, ISO code for Poland is pl or pol. The latter is a rafsi for pol= no, as I demonstrated above...
--
Ecce Jezuch
"10 Com&ments": "God: Im #1. No pix, plz. Uz my name nic= ely. Day7holy.
Take care of mum&dad. Dont kill, scrU round, steal | lie. Keep yr hands=
(&eyz) off wot isnt yrs!'" - Dziesi=EA=E6 przykaza=F1 w SMS-la= ng

Well, I have to say I am in agreement with yo= ur frustrations. Not long ago, someone brought up the fact that Lojban has = cultural gismu, but not all cultures are represented, and that Lojban's= cultural neutrality is endangered by this fact, and that the solution was = all or nothing - either all cultures have a cultural gismu, or none.

There was also a side point that the cultural gismu that /do/ exist are= too generic, such as glico "x1 is English/pertains to English-speakin= g culture in aspect x2", which refers to Brits, U.S.Americans, Canadia= ns, South Africans, Australians, and possibly more, or to go the other way = 'round, ropno "x1 reflects European culture/nationality/geography/= Indo-European languages in aspect x2", which refers to the culture and= nationality and geography and language of a region. In response to this se= cond point, and the fact that I felt "nothing" was both easier th= an "all" and actually possible (due to the fact that cultures by = their very nature are constantly forming, changing, and dissolving), I crea= ted culturally neutral lujvo for the individual concepts of nationality, cu= lture, etc.:

Language : banra= 'a
Culture : klura'a
Community :=A0cemra'a
Religion : jdara'= ;a
Nationality : selgu'era'a
Territory : tutra'a

Someone else decided to go with "all" and made fu'ivla us= ing ISO codes for all the countries, languages, etc., which is how banpu= 9;olu came about, and considering the immense effort, time, and discussion = spent in the ISO code-based fu'ivla making, I'm not surprised my wo= rds got lost in the shuffle.

(By the way, I would appreciate jbopre following the links and approvin= g the words, and I would even more appreciate them being used.)

Ther= e's even a tiki-page about this whole fiasco: which actually pre-dates = the group thread: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=3D= Boo+to+cultural+gismu

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le= bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to= the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
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