From lojban+bncCL-Ey5qiChDJ3fPkBBoEC0QLiA@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 24 11:33:00 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OzD4q-0001o5-AU; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 11:33:00 -0700 Received: by yxs7 with SMTP id 7sf1752417yxs.16 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 11:32:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:sender :received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=vIjWXKoNA0bYmRbj+VXd9mi66ikUvViCzwWFtDYOhmE=; b=aEkCpYpzIv2qyt6nBN8iwTEJPxG37r+Xu4kHhZ2MBhMAhKfEC3wnJ34URDQjVilMEy 79v3u96YFS4bUjFpKt0lqBxWY+jomGx9sxrnoaoO6cNdQ0p/XAy83EKgx8ib2hOy++yt N357JmW250Y9PE3a9VM4ANowob/+XzQvK1PpM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=YNAWntw76KGXa7SztFtlIR/2tJD7uPLsRug6yQ1DEYyDtN0c1T6p6By1js5ZQPDHXw 9a1dhkgiNKadPy96H0VmS4bfUfvcQ7WP/UvUwnOjRlKTXtEHi88Z7PtQzl7hPQrelKqU Wvlig1ojxpgFDBuDzoR0BXcPWJ9iG/+89YiyY= Received: by 10.101.124.9 with SMTP id b9mr150239ann.26.1285353161782; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 11:32:41 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.194.29 with SMTP id w29ls967635anp.1.p; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 11:32:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.49.29 with SMTP id w29mr2901540anw.23.1285353160939; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 11:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.49.29 with SMTP id w29mr2901536anw.23.1285353160391; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 11:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f172.google.com (mail-gx0-f172.google.com [209.85.161.172]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id j8si2038095ana.5.2010.09.24.11.32.39; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 11:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of craigbdaniel@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.172 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.172; Received: by mail-gx0-f172.google.com with SMTP id 20so1509950gxk.17 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 11:32:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.168.12 with SMTP id s12mr1566529vcy.240.1285353159161; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 11:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.92.193 with HTTP; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 11:32:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <38be6f52-9655-414a-adbe-8eb94559fd5f@e34g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <20100923101847.c398dcec.kfa@gmx.net> <8b9a0138-57ef-4e4c-a343-653b4f481e8d@g10g2000vbc.googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:32:38 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Alice - the xorlo version From: Craig Daniel To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: craigbdaniel@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of craigbdaniel@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.172 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=craigbdaniel@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 1:59 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Luke Bergen wro= te: >> >> Well hang on, she grew tired of sitting by her sister and doing nothing. >> If one were doing something that was extremely taxing on the body, they >> would very quickly become tatpi.=A0 If one were doing something very tax= ing to >> one's interest i.e. doing something boring, they could become tatpi > > Here's my problem with likening "boredom" to {tatpi}: > > tatpi=A0 x1 is tired/*fatigued* by effort/situation x2 (event); x1 needs/= wants > rest > > The fact that the word "fatigued" is included in the definition means, to > me, that {tatpi} is a valid translation of "tire" as in "become sleepy or > weary", but not of "tire" as in "become bored or impatient". I believe that she's becoming something that I would describe as "weary," but if I were translating it myself I'd probably use a tanru that while convey what (decidedly non-core) part of tatpi's semantic space is being invoked. Off-the-cuff I'm thinking something like "unamused-weary", but somebody with a better vocabulary than mine can probably do much better. By the way, is it just me being not very good at looking up good ways to say words I don't know, or is there not a convenient way to refer to boredom with a brief lujvo? ...actually, hold that thought. Who says boredom needs to be expressed with brivla? Perhaps if one opted for saying she was tatpi .a'ucu'idai.a'enaidai.a'acu'idai, then both her mental state and the fact that the author also finds Alice sitting there kind of boring and decidedly worth moving on from to her much more fascinating time in Wonderland would be as clear as there is any need for them to be. That's a bit of a mouthful if you use all of it, because there very definitely isn't a UI that captures boredom exactly. But I think all of those get at what she's probably feeling, and what I would quickly find myself feeling if the narrative didn't progress from there to the fantasy. I like using tatpi if it can be done unconfusingly, since after all the dominant interpretation of what happens next is that she falls asleep. I prefer to imagine it as a fantastic story in which these things actually happen - or rather, I prefer to imagine it both ways, since the fact that the text doesn't *quite* tell us which it is but makes it clear the dream is a strong possibility is part of what I like about it. But really, if I had to pick one, she's dreaming; if she's dreaming it is because she's sipna, which happened in part because she was tatpi whether or not her ka tatpi was what that sentence told us about. - mi'e .kreig.daniyl. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.