From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCAgPTkBBoE01H4hw@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 24 12:46:28 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OzEDv-00076B-DF; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:46:28 -0700 Received: by gya1 with SMTP id 1sf1750521gya.16 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:46:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=8Ro2ztOS7OrCEzZ8ajgR4Gt7iQzCezYcwyxb5LKqa3g=; b=OGlVfUCQrrGlRnNDgRy1StcJKVSiixB03V1fajJJtyMTQoUvtEaim4mz35MC+LWCjv jPFhyk2w4OP3Af9fOoAgUc9nXru3DlRB2YnJ8Ys8Ot9kcOXCFxQINeRLcN7OmcjAjcwY /r+Cr9oRwovHVaEWNNN887XPIa1Kds2ODVnRk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=BGOgQ3aOXg8evZpyMTfzIDynm/zHvtOgXL1HbKO4CHDiI6/Knwfv6JiJicCKkB6zP+ HQQVqPl0qNUQWGEcQW9SPqo/yAC0h47/P1L5I51c5W+h/ev2gKr5DAIVjh3/WMRcNDKk MLC6ar8hqMoYOjFQ3GWNVUuPoii81nRYYn0Z8= Received: by 10.90.96.3 with SMTP id t3mr554227agb.26.1285357568329; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:46:08 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.90.103.16 with SMTP id a16ls1362821agc.3.p; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:46:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.51.21 with SMTP id y21mr1006186yby.58.1285357567468; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:46:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.51.21 with SMTP id y21mr1006185yby.58.1285357567436; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:46:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.121]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id q2si1874372ybk.1.2010.09.24.12.46.06; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.121; Received: (qmail 640 invoked by uid 60001); 24 Sep 2010 19:46:05 -0000 Message-ID: <726959.354.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: h2Rqgd0VM1kQYuca_0m.PT0WhCHQ2lfvmD7DDR6E0GeBa1S D4cnVt3Js.i0aLylOHPcIuk6Q35uk7v.eUkjNV5pusjDm9UjBUVsn_JRf.PQ rZ6EbCKD_3.4gdgUK8lmXi2MtN5jvKnNaKZ7yXhdb5KK0fxTDCeT1bBiQ7jX DV9kopBDuMAePjPS68q_hNPeN6yuK4JR1Zo.MgDI_cC9gQ8GNtn0jaLZXIeZ VKIaYBnm6JXQT0Qt_De.DrubSDty2lA_.9MYBbLtzA3CjcSxPsWqjw9tkCy7 ntkTS_ukf5nwTiWQIRWkMZ48Fd_KiypFsff8445MDIXwV09xt09PysT3I0UZ mNVOrhLo4MRXBxShhzl1m4QeZzQEAPzvecH09hA-- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:46:05 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/497 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 References: <38be6f52-9655-414a-adbe-8eb94559fd5f@e34g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <20100923101847.c398dcec.kfa@gmx.net> <8b9a0138-57ef-4e4c-a343-653b4f481e8d@g10g2000vbc.googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:46:05 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Alice - the xorlo version To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Well, there is no sign that Dodo is bored, etc., just that he is moving the story along. And do be very careful with UI to be sure that you don't use them to describe an emotion rather than express it. Alice does not express anything (orally, at least) in this passage and there is o sign that the writer empathizes with the emotion she is described as having.. ----- Original Message ---- From: Craig Daniel To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 1:32:38 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Alice - the xorlo version On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 1:59 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: >> >> Well hang on, she grew tired of sitting by her sister and doing nothing. >> If one were doing something that was extremely taxing on the body, they >> would very quickly become tatpi. If one were doing something very taxing to >> one's interest i.e. doing something boring, they could become tatpi > > Here's my problem with likening "boredom" to {tatpi}: > > tatpi x1 is tired/*fatigued* by effort/situation x2 (event); x1 needs/wants > rest > > The fact that the word "fatigued" is included in the definition means, to > me, that {tatpi} is a valid translation of "tire" as in "become sleepy or > weary", but not of "tire" as in "become bored or impatient". I believe that she's becoming something that I would describe as "weary," but if I were translating it myself I'd probably use a tanru that while convey what (decidedly non-core) part of tatpi's semantic space is being invoked. Off-the-cuff I'm thinking something like "unamused-weary", but somebody with a better vocabulary than mine can probably do much better. By the way, is it just me being not very good at looking up good ways to say words I don't know, or is there not a convenient way to refer to boredom with a brief lujvo? ...actually, hold that thought. Who says boredom needs to be expressed with brivla? Perhaps if one opted for saying she was tatpi .a'ucu'idai.a'enaidai.a'acu'idai, then both her mental state and the fact that the author also finds Alice sitting there kind of boring and decidedly worth moving on from to her much more fascinating time in Wonderland would be as clear as there is any need for them to be. That's a bit of a mouthful if you use all of it, because there very definitely isn't a UI that captures boredom exactly. But I think all of those get at what she's probably feeling, and what I would quickly find myself feeling if the narrative didn't progress from there to the fantasy. I like using tatpi if it can be done unconfusingly, since after all the dominant interpretation of what happens next is that she falls asleep. I prefer to imagine it as a fantastic story in which these things actually happen - or rather, I prefer to imagine it both ways, since the fact that the text doesn't *quite* tell us which it is but makes it clear the dream is a strong possibility is part of what I like about it. But really, if I had to pick one, she's dreaming; if she's dreaming it is because she's sipna, which happened in part because she was tatpi whether or not her ka tatpi was what that sentence told us about. - mi'e .kreig.daniyl. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.