From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDtiPTkBBoE163mpQ@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 24 13:05:17 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OzEW9-00007p-Pq; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 13:05:17 -0700 Received: by gxk9 with SMTP id 9sf1784094gxk.16 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 13:05:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=fOa0drWD98ZzK92aCO+V9YtieH9eZLz4dllOJ5NJR/U=; b=VD7KeETacl+Urxyl6/LSNgl50A1AK6aTFKHYwnLitBvGIZIEAMqfiL/jIMoOEMVsyW 13+YjC4lD2xeFSkSInoNXztnly6AAo6g2DFja6ZP8lqc/hREEjTlVgCPoIHUQTBf+MZs bw7dcI5/iSk3FeFMr3X6xARDmTYlhfIUmttGc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=OVX3bff0D+hzNHhh+YpM63IQc7YXpMbAYmOdOlEZ+ZQT5D+6dnik1oBqPalM+mTA4C OmWUCAk/eGew3O615W4Vl+pCNaBYnvt8IVADbCMhP1OWxr/CXaMnbX6h0ENuLYq6JgVB 4kS3YAnGeULvhGv7gJpzwJ9vBocsBOnmNrr8c= Received: by 10.91.16.18 with SMTP id t18mr539142agi.10.1285358701752; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 13:05:01 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.125.77 with SMTP id x13ls877702ibr.1.p; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 13:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.36.73 with SMTP id s9mr612669ibd.14.1285358701095; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 13:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.36.73 with SMTP id s9mr612668ibd.14.1285358701041; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 13:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f181.google.com (mail-iw0-f181.google.com [209.85.214.181]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id z37si1574511ibq.4.2010.09.24.13.04.59; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 13:05:00 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.181 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.181; Received: by mail-iw0-f181.google.com with SMTP id 39so3480305iwn.40 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 13:04:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.168.21 with SMTP id s21mr4246455iby.123.1285358697931; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 13:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.48.79 with HTTP; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 13:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.48.79 with HTTP; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 13:04:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <726959.354.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <38be6f52-9655-414a-adbe-8eb94559fd5f@e34g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <20100923101847.c398dcec.kfa@gmx.net> <8b9a0138-57ef-4e4c-a343-653b4f481e8d@g10g2000vbc.googlegroups.com> <726959.354.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 16:04:57 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Alice - the xorlo version From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.181 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c92e9c9963e9049106e44d --001636c92e9c9963e9049106e44d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 doi cevni. We're at 73 messages and not even out of the first paragraph On Sep 24, 2010 3:46 PM, "John E Clifford" wrote: > Well, there is no sign that Dodo is bored, etc., just that he is moving the > story along. And do be very careful with UI to be sure that you don't use them > to describe an emotion rather than express it. Alice does not express anything > (orally, at least) in this passage and there is o sign that the writer > empathizes with the emotion she is described as having.. > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Craig Daniel > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 1:32:38 PM > Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Alice - the xorlo version > > On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 1:59 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: >>> >>> Well hang on, she grew tired of sitting by her sister and doing nothing. >>> If one were doing something that was extremely taxing on the body, they >>> would very quickly become tatpi. If one were doing something very taxing to >>> one's interest i.e. doing something boring, they could become tatpi >> >> Here's my problem with likening "boredom" to {tatpi}: >> >> tatpi x1 is tired/*fatigued* by effort/situation x2 (event); x1 needs/wants >> rest >> >> The fact that the word "fatigued" is included in the definition means, to >> me, that {tatpi} is a valid translation of "tire" as in "become sleepy or >> weary", but not of "tire" as in "become bored or impatient". > > I believe that she's becoming something that I would describe as > "weary," but if I were translating it myself I'd probably use a tanru > that while convey what (decidedly non-core) part of tatpi's semantic > space is being invoked. Off-the-cuff I'm thinking something like > "unamused-weary", but somebody with a better > vocabulary than mine can probably do much better. > > By the way, is it just me being not very good at looking up good ways > to say words I don't know, or is there not a convenient way to refer > to boredom with a brief lujvo? > > ...actually, hold that thought. Who says boredom needs to be expressed > with brivla? Perhaps if one opted for saying she was tatpi > .a'ucu'idai.a'enaidai.a'acu'idai, then both her mental state and the > fact that the author also finds Alice sitting there kind of boring and > decidedly worth moving on from to her much more fascinating time in > Wonderland would be as clear as there is any need for them to be. > That's a bit of a mouthful if you use all of it, because there very > definitely isn't a UI that captures boredom exactly. But I think all > of those get at what she's probably feeling, and what I would quickly > find myself feeling if the narrative didn't progress from there to the > fantasy. > > I like using tatpi if it can be done unconfusingly, since after all > the dominant interpretation of what happens next is that she falls > asleep. I prefer to imagine it as a fantastic story in which these > things actually happen - or rather, I prefer to imagine it both ways, > since the fact that the text doesn't *quite* tell us which it is but > makes it clear the dream is a strong possibility is part of what I > like about it. But really, if I had to pick one, she's dreaming; if > she's dreaming it is because she's sipna, which happened in part > because she was tatpi whether or not her ka tatpi was what that > sentence told us about. > > - mi'e .kreig.daniyl. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com . > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --001636c92e9c9963e9049106e44d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

doi cevni. We're at 73 messages and not even out of the first paragr= aph

On Sep 24, 2010 3:46 PM, "John E Clifford&q= uot; <kali9putra@yahoo.com&g= t; wrote:
> Well, there is no sign that Dodo is = bored, etc., just that he is moving the
> story along. And do be very careful with UI to be sure that you don&#= 39;t use them
> to describe an emotion rather than express it. Alic= e does not express anything
> (orally, at least) in this passage and= there is o sign that the writer
> empathizes with the emotion she is described as having..
>
&= gt;
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Craig Daniel <teucer@pobox.com>
> To: lojban@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 1:32:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [lojban]= Re: Alice - the xorlo version
>
> On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 1:5= 9 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail= .com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>&g= t;
>>> Well hang on, she grew tired of sitting by her sister an= d doing nothing.
>>> If one were doing something that was extremely taxing on the b= ody, they
>>> would very quickly become tatpi. If one were doi= ng something very taxing to
>>> one's interest i.e. doing s= omething boring, they could become tatpi
>>
>> Here's my problem with likening "boredom"= ; to {tatpi}:
>>
>> tatpi x1 is tired/*fatigued* by effo= rt/situation x2 (event); x1 needs/wants
>> rest
>>
>> The fact that the word "fatigued" is included in the def= inition means, to
>> me, that {tatpi} is a valid translation of &q= uot;tire" as in "become sleepy or
>> weary", but no= t of "tire" as in "become bored or impatient".
>
> I believe that she's becoming something that I would desc= ribe as
> "weary," but if I were translating it myself I= 9;d probably use a tanru
> that while convey what (decidedly non-core= ) part of tatpi's semantic
> space is being invoked. Off-the-cuff I'm thinking something like> <tolselzdi tatpi> "unamused-weary", but somebody wit= h a better
> vocabulary than mine can probably do much better.
>
> By the way, is it just me being not very good at looking up g= ood ways
> to say words I don't know, or is there not a convenien= t way to refer
> to boredom with a brief lujvo?
>
> ...a= ctually, hold that thought. Who says boredom needs to be expressed
> with brivla? Perhaps if one opted for saying she was tatpi
> .a&= #39;ucu'idai.a'enaidai.a'acu'idai, then both her mental sta= te and the
> fact that the author also finds Alice sitting there kind= of boring and
> decidedly worth moving on from to her much more fascinating time in> Wonderland would be as clear as there is any need for them to be.
= > That's a bit of a mouthful if you use all of it, because there ver= y
> definitely isn't a UI that captures boredom exactly. But I think a= ll
> of those get at what she's probably feeling, and what I woul= d quickly
> find myself feeling if the narrative didn't progress = from there to the
> fantasy.
>
> I like using tatpi if it can be done unconfu= singly, since after all
> the dominant interpretation of what happens= next is that she falls
> asleep. I prefer to imagine it as a fantast= ic story in which these
> things actually happen - or rather, I prefer to imagine it both ways,<= br>> since the fact that the text doesn't *quite* tell us which it i= s but
> makes it clear the dream is a strong possibility is part of w= hat I
> like about it. But really, if I had to pick one, she's dreaming; i= f
> she's dreaming it is because she's sipna, which happened = in part
> because she was tatpi whether or not her ka tatpi was what = that
> sentence told us about.
>
> - mi'e .kreig.daniyl.
= >
> --
> You received this message because you are subscri= bed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To post= to this group, send email to lo= jban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.c= om.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/grou= p/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>
>
>
> --
> You received thi= s message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban"= ; group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
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