From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCurfTkBBoEt9BSDg@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 24 14:23:10 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OzFjW-0004ni-Km; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:23:10 -0700 Received: by wyb40 with SMTP id 40sf751231wyb.16 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:23:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=94d41xCMR7q8L+rtgU+g9z5vjC4B4Cf0jTgh0KZubKM=; b=cJ9j5jxTsI87VYvaPn3Q5Let1KznMQIOtXZIPrdNBNA+UwFMp6Erb/KXG+52Kd+FEP +OelCGcXcZV0MiOUEhnYKNJbM7jFmZhD/ncw5Y5+hesZHXViFSYi5TWKBTNnjjEWb1nZ DBOp34GWJspnsX4S7emzM3LLKTn+Sg1QQuO58= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=htkNvn4EdKoNrC8q01CkCDo89s7MDLf4CdSivI7CvMIZv/Nj3ekeub0y8Wx0oATweN etkl+16T/wsSrN5l0LbjL5lE1bLZjDfZEpYy4SN1PgHqTi2LiW7ck9XbuGsq1Cjkz7Tt G2gEDPv08S3pgY9qbZiqlhQlv5wRjrLfgtRVM= Received: by 10.216.145.130 with SMTP id p2mr814437wej.7.1285363374143; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:22:54 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.39.10 with SMTP id d10ls844149wbe.2.p; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.148.4 with SMTP id n4mr231848wbv.0.1285363372122; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.148.4 with SMTP id n4mr231847wbv.0.1285363372091; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f46.google.com (mail-ww0-f46.google.com [74.125.82.46]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id ey20si960949wbb.2.2010.09.24.14.22.50; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.46 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.46; Received: by mail-ww0-f46.google.com with SMTP id 13so68399wwb.15 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:22:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.142.8 with SMTP id o8mr3569749wbu.16.1285363370135; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.145.130 with HTTP; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:22:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <38be6f52-9655-414a-adbe-8eb94559fd5f@e34g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <20100923101847.c398dcec.kfa@gmx.net> <8b9a0138-57ef-4e4c-a343-653b4f481e8d@g10g2000vbc.googlegroups.com> <726959.354.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 18:22:49 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Alice - the xorlo version From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.46 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 5:04 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > doi cevni. We're at 73 messages and not even out of the first paragraph The very first sentence, in fact, if you don't count the introductory poem. That poem probably has a lot more juicy bits to comment on, but I can't say I blame anyone for skipping it. I think it might be useful to separate two issues here: (1) What exactly does "tatpi" mean? How wide/narrow is its meaning? (2) What is the best possible translation of the first sentence of 'Alice in Wonderland'? As for (2), I will make the final decision for my translation. Everyone else is of course welcome to hate my choice or not, but I'm responsible for it and so I will choose according to my own judgement. I'm grateful for all the opinions and suggestions, which I will keep pondering on. For the time being, "tatpi" stays. As for (1), it seems the consensus is that "tatpi" can be used without any trouble for things like: "She is tired from having run a marathon." "She is tired from having played chess for five hours." "She is tired from putting up with her in-laws for a week." It is not so clear what the general opinion is on: "She is tired of running, so she will stop any time now." "She is tired of playing chess every Sunday, so she won't be doing it anymore for a while." "She is tired of having to put up with her in-laws every Thanksgiving." Does the fact that the thing that makes her tired is still going on, or is habitual, make a difference as to the use of "tatpi"? I think not, but people have said that "tatpi" is never "tired of", so I don't know what they think of those cases. Then there's the issue of being tired from doing nothing. Is it possible? There might be room for a philosophical discussion there, but linguistically it is definitely possible, just Google "tired from doing nothing" and see for yourself. This is my favorite from the first page of hits: http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/4464836 Staying with the first sentence still, I was actually more unhappy with "zukte fi no da" for "having nothing to do" than with "co'a tatpi". mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.