From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDQr_TkBBoEJt4mrw@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 24 14:28:00 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OzFoC-0005h1-O8; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:28:00 -0700 Received: by ywp4 with SMTP id 4sf688528ywp.16 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:27:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=vEa7ZRPZMVpca1VmPo1bTYNqdGweUtOUSIMO58ITVco=; b=yZU/ofh8KeQR/tlRVfrfx4tvRnZeaLZiYphurvg2dBZLCmG/kN3hG/QTiBJTOULfgR Y77qXQO/AP+TPdftVyAITq7F2Ea1EjeD9MWkEnjsj05fdSt5NIjWsYrqlRKiGo+uTMgv lKnPU8bKCGoDMgh3ELhpXsO1iWoO33+5w90E8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=5N+mQXKQbZCU194ZQ91MUETn09OAxGXxmkziN24nAlDicrSX+FPNf9Ct5YlYuk2tVz kJgaz84y/GJ0V90ReA84KP4XIKyuvFU8azhGbAHH8dEnQ0dVlCrozgTHHXo6/n9nkiUQ HVMEdbbYS9UxmtL2nlpGbYE2j1SXylpZ/25EM= Received: by 10.90.3.14 with SMTP id 14mr566793agc.17.1285363664817; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:27:44 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.123.203 with SMTP id q11ls896670ibr.2.p; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:27:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.79.82 with SMTP id o18mr571220ibk.15.1285363664073; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:27:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.79.82 with SMTP id o18mr571219ibk.15.1285363664005; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:27:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f179.google.com (mail-iw0-f179.google.com [209.85.214.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id e25si1622064ibk.7.2010.09.24.14.27.42; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.179; Received: by iwn40 with SMTP id 40so2139944iwn.38 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:27:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.170.21 with SMTP id b21mr4192319ibz.122.1285363662686; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.48.79 with HTTP; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:27:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <38be6f52-9655-414a-adbe-8eb94559fd5f@e34g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <20100923101847.c398dcec.kfa@gmx.net> <8b9a0138-57ef-4e4c-a343-653b4f481e8d@g10g2000vbc.googlegroups.com> <726959.354.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 17:27:42 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Alice - the xorlo version From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=005045029bef858a000491080ca8 --005045029bef858a000491080ca8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable nice diversion. You're right, that's pretty awful now that I think of it. {zukte fi no da} means that I perform some act but with no goal. Not that I do nothing because I have nothing to do. It's actually the opposite of "do nothing". 2010/9/24 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 5:04 PM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > > doi cevni. We're at 73 messages and not even out of the first paragraph > > The very first sentence, in fact, if you don't count the introductory > poem. That poem probably has a lot more juicy bits to comment on, but > I can't say I blame anyone for skipping it. > > I think it might be useful to separate two issues here: > > (1) What exactly does "tatpi" mean? How wide/narrow is its meaning? > > (2) What is the best possible translation of the first sentence of > 'Alice in Wonderland'? > > As for (2), I will make the final decision for my translation. > Everyone else is of course welcome to hate my choice or not, but I'm > responsible for it and so I will choose according to my own judgement. > I'm grateful for all the opinions and suggestions, which I will keep > pondering on. For the time being, "tatpi" stays. > > As for (1), it seems the consensus is that "tatpi" can be used without > any trouble for things like: > > "She is tired from having run a marathon." > "She is tired from having played chess for five hours." > "She is tired from putting up with her in-laws for a week." > > It is not so clear what the general opinion is on: > > "She is tired of running, so she will stop any time now." > "She is tired of playing chess every Sunday, so she won't be doing it > anymore for a while." > "She is tired of having to put up with her in-laws every Thanksgiving." > > Does the fact that the thing that makes her tired is still going on, > or is habitual, make a difference as to the use of "tatpi"? I think > not, but people have said that "tatpi" is never "tired of", so I don't > know what they think of those cases. > > Then there's the issue of being tired from doing nothing. Is it > possible? There might be room for a philosophical discussion there, > but linguistically it is definitely possible, just Google "tired from > doing nothing" and see for yourself. This is my favorite from the > first page of hits: > http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/4464836 > > Staying with the first sentence still, I was actually more unhappy > with "zukte fi no da" for "having nothing to do" than with "co'a > tatpi". > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --005045029bef858a000491080ca8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable nice diversion. =A0You're right, that's pretty awful now that I thi= nk of it. =A0{zukte fi no da} means that I perform some act but with no goa= l. =A0Not that I do nothing because I have nothing to do. =A0It's actua= lly the opposite of "do nothing".

2010/9/24 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 5:04 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> doi cevni. We're at 73 messages and not even out of the first para= graph

The very first sentence, in fact, if you don't count the introduc= tory
poem. That poem probably has a lot more juicy bits to comment on, but
I can't say I blame anyone for skipping it.

I think it might be useful to separate two issues here:

(1) What exactly does "tatpi" mean? How wide/narrow is its meanin= g?

(2) What is the best possible translation of the first sentence of
'Alice in Wonderland'?

As for (2), I will make the final decision for my translation.
Everyone else is of course welcome to hate my choice or not, but I'm responsible for it and so I will choose according to my own judgement.
I'm grateful for all the opinions and suggestions, which I will keep pondering on. For the time being, "tatpi" stays.

As for (1), it seems the consensus is that "tatpi" can be used wi= thout
any trouble for things like:

"She is tired from having run a marathon."
"She is tired from having played chess for five hours."
"She is tired from putting up with her in-laws for a week."

It is not so clear what the general opinion is on:

"She is tired of running, so she will stop any time now."
"She is tired of playing chess every Sunday, so she won't be doing= it
anymore for a while."
"She is tired of having to put up with her in-laws every Thanksgiving.= "

Does the fact that the thing that makes her tired is still going on,
or is habitual, make a difference as to the use of "tatpi"? I thi= nk
not, but people have said that "tatpi" is never "tired of&qu= ot;, so I don't
know what they think of those cases.

Then there's the issue of being tired from doing nothing. Is it
possible? There might be room for a philosophical discussion there,
but linguistically it is definitely possible, just Google "tired from<= br> doing nothing" and see for yourself. This is my favorite from the
first page of hits:
http= ://www.travelblog.org/Photos/4464836

Staying with the first sentence still, I was actually more unhappy
with "zukte fi no da" for "having nothing to do" than w= ith "co'a
tatpi".

mu'o mi'e xorxes

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--005045029bef858a000491080ca8--