From lojban+bncCM-P6d3GHBDTzfTkBBoEP9Sw5w@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 24 15:32:03 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OzGoB-00012B-7C; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:32:03 -0700 Received: by wyb40 with SMTP id 40sf761061wyb.16 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:31:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version:received :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=0bhcEqFlWdGRJpBidTXT7mQub1n3a/qQAOmYxnxFry0=; b=SB+hZ7pe4bp0CUKLKSc/J85YPkni85ADHoeeiTcJ50QmXbWybqwHa0Iwb0yyHVOXqZ q/ftosoCFJv8FNzCjMLqIuvWgplItmloWqD6XCQzHaUYVNoCWdxuevb1E0kmQRt1tPcV Lquaa+RX/zkOZ4bvquQ3lc8rkoNfDtXbIUKLw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=S5TOjkdxyb8e5VlDJF9Hh+PRuxkJJxa8+EmhtNjda9hJLoIQ37DV9gHKtpyzRbmaS3 ACfBxHEQ+nZ1dve8yh4qwpH8r9804efTLZmH7hOYgXTSDdpQL4YpBskQAg+7nhqWp9rT TiJVBj6D8PBlYFNzMELr9xld2iAWfS2vtnLd0= Received: by 10.216.145.97 with SMTP id o75mr823750wej.16.1285367507714; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:31:47 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.101.19 with SMTP id a19ls657506wbo.3.p; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.152.196 with SMTP id h4mr233569wbw.21.1285367505508; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.152.196 with SMTP id h4mr233568wbw.21.1285367505484; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f179.google.com (mail-wy0-f179.google.com [74.125.82.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id a37si981694wba.3.2010.09.24.15.31.44; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:31:44 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of leos.molas@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.179; Received: by mail-wy0-f179.google.com with SMTP id 21so29648wya.24 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:31:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.11.3 with SMTP id 3mr10002297wew.89.1285367503574; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:31:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.188.199 with HTTP; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:31:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201009241849.27524.jezuch@interia.pl> From: Leo Molas Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 19:31:22 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Jbofi'e working To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: leos.molas@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of leos.molas@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=leos.molas@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/9/24 Jonathan Jones : > On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Krzysztof Sobolewski > wrote: >> >> Dnia pi=C4=85tek, 24 wrze=C5=9Bnia 2010 o 18:13:27 Jonathan Jones napisa= =C5=82(a): >> >> > lu ma lojbo valsi zoi py.rodak.py li'u drani >> >> ki'anai ki'e >> >> > .i.ua mi facki >> > >> > Polish >> > (culture) po'olska >> >> From the very beginning I was looking for Polish stuff among lojban word= s >> and now I'm sad to find that there's not even a gismu for it! What's mor= e, >> "polska" is a lujvo that means "colors of Polynesia" ;) Yeap... we discussed about it some time ago, and there were many discussions before that. I'm on the "boo to cultural gismu" side, even when my country (Argentina) has its own gismu (gento). The ISO codes idea was to replace all the cultural gismu, and start using fu'ivla instead, created automatically, and also trying to convince other people to do the same. There were many other proposals, like jonathan's, and the time will say which one lojbanists prefer (that and if we do stop using those ugly gismu, that make sad polish people and people from many other countries) My part in all that was to create some python scripts that, given a list of countries/languages/currencies with their iso codes, create other list with new fu'ivla. (for example, here are all the countries https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=3D0Ai4mbIPr2PUwdENVckVaOTJLbVdGVE5S= eGJ0MTBTbGc&hl=3Den ). All of this was based on an algorithm created by xorxes. >> >> > Polish >> > (language) bangrpolska >> >> Yeah, but Polish is an inflected language and spelling it as "bangrpolsk= i" >> (note the ending, from "j=C4=99zyk polski") was a kind of a political st= atement >> zo'osai On the other hand gugdrpolska is about right in that regard, unl= ess >> you think of "pa=C5=84stwo polskie" (and if I was really, really mean, I= would >> say gugdrjetcpospolita) >> >> > (Above from jbovlaste) >> > Polish >> > (Polish language) banpu'olu >> > >> > =C2=A0(I believe this one is based on the ISO code.) >> >> Well, ISO code for Poland is pl or pol. The latter is a rafsi for polno, >> as I demonstrated above... >> -- Yeap, that one is based on the iso code. One of the benefits of this fu'ivla is that their pronunciation is not weird, with lots of concatenated consonants. >> Ecce Jezuch >> "10 Com&ments": "God: Im #1. No pix, plz. Uz my name nicely. Day7holy. >> Take care of mum&dad. Dont kill, scrU round, steal | lie. Keep yr hands >> (&eyz) off wot isnt yrs!'" - Dziesi=C4=99=C4=87 przykaza=C5=84 w SMS-lan= g > > Well, I have to say I am in agreement with your frustrations. Not long ag= o, > someone brought up the fact that Lojban has cultural gismu, but not all > cultures are represented, and that Lojban's cultural neutrality is > endangered by this fact, and that the solution was all or nothing - eithe= r > all cultures have a cultural gismu, or none. > > There was also a side point that the cultural gismu that /do/ exist are t= oo > generic, such as glico "x1 is English/pertains to English-speaking cultur= e > in aspect x2", which refers to Brits, U.S.Americans, Canadians, South > Africans, Australians, and possibly more, or to go the other way 'round, > ropno "x1 reflects European culture/nationality/geography/Indo-European > languages in aspect x2", which refers to the culture and nationality and > geography and language of a region. In response to this second point, and > the fact that I felt "nothing" was both easier than "all" and actually > possible (due to the fact that cultures by their very nature are constant= ly > forming, changing, and dissolving), I created culturally neutral lujvo fo= r > the individual concepts of nationality, culture, etc.: > > Language : banra'a > Culture : klura'a > Community :=C2=A0cemra'a > Religion : jdara'a > Nationality : selgu'era'a > Territory : tutra'a > > Someone else decided to go with "all" and made fu'ivla using ISO codes fo= r > all the countries, languages, etc., which is how banpu'olu came about, an= d > considering the immense effort, time, and discussion spent in the ISO > code-based fu'ivla making, I'm not surprised my words got lost in the > shuffle. > > (By the way, I would appreciate jbopre following the links and approving = the > words, and I would even more appreciate them being used.) > > There's even a tiki-page about this whole fiasco: which actually pre-date= s > the group thread: > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=3DBoo+to+cultural+gismu > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu= do > zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- I'm really convinced that cultural gismu are a bad thing, and should be replaced. But this has some problems: 1) Gismu list is not going to change, at least in a very long time. 2) I think there is no consensus in which solution is better for the replacement. We could use iso generated fu'ivla, cmevla, jonathan's lujvo... Time will say which one is prefered by most lojbanists. I don't want to bore you more with this old discussion, but if any is interested in continuing it, I'll be happy to do it. mu'o mi'e .leos. --=20 My Lojban journal: http://learninglojban.wordpress.com/ My personal =C2=B5blog: http://leomolas.tumblr.com/ --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.