From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCq2fTkBBoEgo67fA@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 24 15:56:56 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OzHCH-0001wL-0D; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:56:56 -0700 Received: by ywp4 with SMTP id 4sf693756ywp.16 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:56:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=3QtyFUkLbxMCMJLs28VyuDspYNoGChFm+TWdEcCMm6M=; b=kjYsL10wr6g8UGOgPiInPs9lN7V+J9B9zecp9T3BAe1cXXmlsA1qqinnfNJwkngWyf pEfwmacGgEXiqfOOq87hgbTHevZTHKxa/qJQwaaShemvBaVn10cbwjIVKNOL5WYl2BG1 kWGxkBFSYEtWzk9ZW5stDT5b8wy2jt+l8wtOI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ZEgq8LB1TIQ5jbtc/pBCj1Kbfz/Lr7vnFxPASC+VTP8S8Fpp2tYyzGEkp3SH0k4O7d Md8P8kwE40mC1mfpdb/KzfE/1EjdY6n/ULQE8+WvQULtpbr5miphrkUWXcsrHksEwwy/ 1jDQ/fF9O+zSN9ntdyWFFt0775Xs5EApTaHG8= Received: by 10.91.9.1 with SMTP id m1mr549989agi.35.1285369002807; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:56:42 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.90.17.28 with SMTP id 28ls1418874agq.6.p; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.103.18 with SMTP id f18mr1015728ybm.51.1285369001439; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.103.18 with SMTP id f18mr1015727ybm.51.1285369001406; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.121]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id d3si1995356ybi.13.2010.09.24.15.56.40; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.121; Received: (qmail 40091 invoked by uid 60001); 24 Sep 2010 22:56:40 -0000 Message-ID: <898522.38520.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 0rfHpogVM1kRBQaQDm4d6gLpbVogPv0sfMBX4af9guEIcch 0pJ8hqYX41hHKhYOlb7LNg9pk98OQdrz.5qY15SUfuhftycOhZqWJ2q8nvr3 vTFJB_A6VwsZy_1yjB39nsbTfvxKgZyulE.DIQWyYFTlx3DHlhvoyC8yErwh eqQ4bp3rjc7XChS6PCGaj5zgPNf7C.TLsHwcwIBtMW7mJo6SWjo2QvHfPmqD GdBRKVgLr5xMrzc_MES.eQDikPDwBbG1O.NjZUYIHq9h1ms6Aoirr6LqV0hp DpQqlMeWFGO5gXrnQR55lrpxrdp8rqKk7e2VPLwVamG5kGzjhnprDyV0XUb8 QEHzER2gT9jHh5GB_L69n1vBDMGE8qrECyZWhbg-- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:56:39 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/497 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 References: <38be6f52-9655-414a-adbe-8eb94559fd5f@e34g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <20100923101847.c398dcec.kfa@gmx.net> <8b9a0138-57ef-4e4c-a343-653b4f481e8d@g10g2000vbc.googlegroups.com> <726959.354.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:56:39 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Alice - the xorlo version To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable touche'! aroop! ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 4:22:49 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Alice - the xorlo version On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 5:04 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > doi cevni. We're at 73 messages and not even out of the first paragraph The very first sentence, in fact, if you don't count the introductory poem. That poem probably has a lot more juicy bits to comment on, but I can't say I blame anyone for skipping it. I think it might be useful to separate two issues here: (1) What exactly does "tatpi" mean? How wide/narrow is its meaning? (2) What is the best possible translation of the first sentence of 'Alice in Wonderland'? As for (2), I will make the final decision for my translation. Everyone else is of course welcome to hate my choice or not, but I'm responsible for it and so I will choose according to my own judgement. I'm grateful for all the opinions and suggestions, which I will keep pondering on. For the time being, "tatpi" stays. As for (1), it seems the consensus is that "tatpi" can be used without any trouble for things like: "She is tired from having run a marathon." "She is tired from having played chess for five hours." "She is tired from putting up with her in-laws for a week." It is not so clear what the general opinion is on: "She is tired of running, so she will stop any time now." "She is tired of playing chess every Sunday, so she won't be doing it anymore for a while." "She is tired of having to put up with her in-laws every Thanksgiving." Does the fact that the thing that makes her tired is still going on, or is habitual, make a difference as to the use of "tatpi"? I think not, but people have said that "tatpi" is never "tired of", so I don't know what they think of those cases. Then there's the issue of being tired from doing nothing. Is it possible? There might be room for a philosophical discussion there, but linguistically it is definitely possible, just Google "tired from doing nothing" and see for yourself. This is my favorite from the first page of hits: http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/4464836 Staying with the first sentence still, I was actually more unhappy with "zukte fi no da" for "having nothing to do" than with "co'a tatpi". mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.