From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRD53_TkBBoEd2Xy6g@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 24 16:11:04 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OzHPx-0002gM-Au; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 16:11:04 -0700 Received: by yxs7 with SMTP id 7sf1811498yxs.16 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 16:10:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=DWkruMI2Mvg9xXjDP6Sq7CxttMOy0oa5C3Y96BjkgZ4=; b=wmbszSmkHsy3FZVNy/SkmL2V8UF6QAnEuZ5q07nNgcyvRjpP54s5kZv7ljTWq4xrFa QoOs0YT6AsH/nFLsOKnnkniaf5IyQ23g2MJfWWKQcVkcaDcHD9zoCMvWz/GM4MMp0fOV dCyv6RDFv5Patsy2p0qR0ZZ3/5YwZ5IcoRFXw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=OV+/hlWz1w4ysioZNek2sLr0MFPwGAzr89hM0xwuYVSUdqV4dN8kXPtEjmeZzPFghl dx5spbS5I79MnWtiXWh+LIJ9fVF+djygNdIOx7H5FM2DLQqw0c+EWL+QO1NMFgU9+UFd x07chAmAMjIuq5qqzHbHn0SVEKs1rLV00UD64= Received: by 10.91.220.5 with SMTP id x5mr551152agq.51.1285369849939; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 16:10:49 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.90.17.28 with SMTP id 28ls1423165agq.6.p; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 16:10:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.13.15 with SMTP id q15mr1073167ybi.21.1285369849273; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 16:10:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.13.15 with SMTP id q15mr1073166ybi.21.1285369849244; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 16:10:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.122]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id k8si2010509ybd.3.2010.09.24.16.10.48; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 16:10:48 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.122 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.122; Received: (qmail 22230 invoked by uid 60001); 24 Sep 2010 23:10:47 -0000 Message-ID: <615016.22146.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: FBAHqHsVM1kveugkzDbhJqK6S6knJZkKfBfatJGiFD0K6iv hgEhLUSW5frVLoZw5QQrOyLUL1IO.GpSanUyjlOH2OG499hZIZz1prSm.7Mr 1vnD26SkBC.7zIrQBoL7o7SJ3o5UWgmEbNqf42rUFrQUnW8gFFnvvnWIvwpj rEGqPc4WEW3flOvJZlUJKIEpLjk6CTAXygXEr23SSSCpqLY.VEnjopXUKkKA v7Gkq.hrXA9ST6URWAhaQ09I7sXNw8hvhEaiVRiqO4SCpB2IUAOsAD_b5Qrt tEsYgOrd_rFTuQCx78Rqg_9TVFhjJz7xWGcaJP1_OQ44PxizdGLUnAoyvqVd 8lhmabhvavvY1iVLbyXV0Jnp7CrG6.jQeL_vk.Q-- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 16:10:47 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/497 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 References: <38be6f52-9655-414a-adbe-8eb94559fd5f@e34g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <20100923101847.c398dcec.kfa@gmx.net> <8b9a0138-57ef-4e4c-a343-653b4f481e8d@g10g2000vbc.googlegroups.com> <726959.354.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <898522.38520.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 16:10:47 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Alice - the xorlo version To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <898522.38520.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.122 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lord love a duck! Are we going to have a full-blown pilpul on every word i= n=20 Alice (it has happened, in fact, in English already). xorxes' version stan= ds.=20 If you want another version, make it. And maybe someone should keep a var= iorum=20 going questions. But clogging a lot of inboxes for a couple of days seems= =20 excessive. Maybe we need an Alice list -- separate and separately subscrib= ed=20 to. ----- Original Message ---- From: John E Clifford To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 5:56:39 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Alice - the xorlo version touche'! aroop! ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 4:22:49 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Alice - the xorlo version On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 5:04 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > doi cevni. We're at 73 messages and not even out of the first paragraph The very first sentence, in fact, if you don't count the introductory poem. That poem probably has a lot more juicy bits to comment on, but I can't say I blame anyone for skipping it. I think it might be useful to separate two issues here: (1) What exactly does "tatpi" mean? How wide/narrow is its meaning? (2) What is the best possible translation of the first sentence of 'Alice in Wonderland'? As for (2), I will make the final decision for my translation. Everyone else is of course welcome to hate my choice or not, but I'm responsible for it and so I will choose according to my own judgement. I'm grateful for all the opinions and suggestions, which I will keep pondering on. For the time being, "tatpi" stays. As for (1), it seems the consensus is that "tatpi" can be used without any trouble for things like: "She is tired from having run a marathon." "She is tired from having played chess for five hours." "She is tired from putting up with her in-laws for a week." It is not so clear what the general opinion is on: "She is tired of running, so she will stop any time now." "She is tired of playing chess every Sunday, so she won't be doing it anymore for a while." "She is tired of having to put up with her in-laws every Thanksgiving." Does the fact that the thing that makes her tired is still going on, or is habitual, make a difference as to the use of "tatpi"? I think not, but people have said that "tatpi" is never "tired of", so I don't know what they think of those cases. Then there's the issue of being tired from doing nothing. Is it possible? There might be room for a philosophical discussion there, but linguistically it is definitely possible, just Google "tired from doing nothing" and see for yourself. This is my favorite from the first page of hits: http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/4464836 Staying with the first sentence still, I was actually more unhappy with "zukte fi no da" for "having nothing to do" than with "co'a tatpi". mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.