From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhD3gPXkBBoEpGUbKg@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 24 17:21:28 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OzIW3-00061L-3f; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 17:21:28 -0700 Received: by gya1 with SMTP id 1sf1799203gya.16 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 17:21:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=pQi/q2oa6ppRyU8RGyxq5nsRcxwzq3KDxnwD9kbuGsw=; b=nI+N0Ka1yJvOmoy4Y7R3ipPEWj3cmj4U2XudaxhCEmtrkuSzNo81prGhfTolxda+Ss SBGTvIXfaV2sOVSyPwDEp4XF6l+rh9b2U26LeHifJ8Xe8GHUTupAKM6/A/45w4YCPuej RJlTa2ipXoDuAZOy4qja0NtubCy6CpGc0y+to= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=Aj2ZulAQYBVLnjcEaIcinKcoZCEnNKV9dBT067j4DRdIaJtPnvdLnz4PbKYaPnL/Wz FxuiHX3/N0F6Fnbr+bSHaRjNE70tPXmmqSBQViiF0fOjhl8D94SakoYc2iQf/Cu3fibg kcMcz1HR3YgLVLExjD2TII4ItANz6HRJ6H2yg= Received: by 10.90.3.33 with SMTP id 33mr556514agc.45.1285374071834; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 17:21:11 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.123.203 with SMTP id q11ls941346ibr.2.p; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 17:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.183.11 with SMTP id ce11mr715927ibb.5.1285374070457; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 17:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.183.11 with SMTP id ce11mr715926ibb.5.1285374070409; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 17:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f180.google.com (mail-iw0-f180.google.com [209.85.214.180]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id e25si1717592ibk.7.2010.09.24.17.21.09; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 17:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.180; Received: by iwn8 with SMTP id 8so3743493iwn.11 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 17:21:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.16.75 with SMTP id n11mr3727682iba.49.1285374068963; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 17:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.206.133 with HTTP; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 17:21:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201009241849.27524.jezuch@interia.pl> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 18:21:08 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Jbofi'e working From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.180 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=002215046dcfc8b9e004910a78e9 --002215046dcfc8b9e004910a78e9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Leo Molas wrote: > 2010/9/24 Jonathan Jones : > > On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Krzysztof Sobolewski < > jezuch@interia.pl> > > wrote: > >> > >> Dnia pi=B1tek, 24 wrze=B6nia 2010 o 18:13:27 Jonathan Jones napisa=B3(= a): > >> > >> > lu ma lojbo valsi zoi py.rodak.py li'u drani > >> > >> ki'anai ki'e > >> > >> > .i.ua mi facki > >> > > >> > Polish > >> > (culture) po'olska > >> > >> From the very beginning I was looking for Polish stuff among lojban > words > >> and now I'm sad to find that there's not even a gismu for it! What's > more, > >> "polska" is a lujvo that means "colors of Polynesia" ;) > > Yeap... we discussed about it some time ago, and there were many > discussions before that. I'm on the "boo to cultural gismu" side, even > when my country (Argentina) has its own gismu (gento). > > The ISO codes idea was to replace all the cultural gismu, and start > using fu'ivla instead, created automatically, and also trying to > convince other people to do the same. There were many other proposals, > like jonathan's, and the time will say which one lojbanists prefer > (that and if we do stop using those ugly gismu, that make sad polish > people and people from many other countries) > > My part in all that was to create some python scripts that, given a > list of countries/languages/currencies with their iso codes, create > other list with new fu'ivla. (for example, here are all the countries > > https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=3D0Ai4mbIPr2PUwdENVckVaOTJLbVdGVE= 5SeGJ0MTBTbGc&hl=3Den > ). All of this was based on an algorithm created by xorxes. > > >> > >> > Polish > >> > (language) bangrpolska > >> > >> Yeah, but Polish is an inflected language and spelling it as > "bangrpolski" > >> (note the ending, from "j=EAzyk polski") was a kind of a political > statement > >> zo'osai On the other hand gugdrpolska is about right in that regard, > unless > >> you think of "pa=F1stwo polskie" (and if I was really, really mean, I > would > >> say gugdrjetcpospolita) > >> > >> > (Above from jbovlaste) > >> > Polish > >> > (Polish language) banpu'olu > >> > > >> > (I believe this one is based on the ISO code.) > >> > >> Well, ISO code for Poland is pl or pol. The latter is a rafsi for poln= o, > >> as I demonstrated above... > >> -- > > Yeap, that one is based on the iso code. One of the benefits of this > fu'ivla is that their pronunciation is not weird, with lots of > concatenated consonants. > > >> Ecce Jezuch > >> "10 Com&ments": "God: Im #1. No pix, plz. Uz my name nicely. Day7holy. > >> Take care of mum&dad. Dont kill, scrU round, steal | lie. Keep yr hand= s > >> (&eyz) off wot isnt yrs!'" - Dziesi=EA=E6 przykaza=F1 w SMS-lang > > > > Well, I have to say I am in agreement with your frustrations. Not long > ago, > > someone brought up the fact that Lojban has cultural gismu, but not all > > cultures are represented, and that Lojban's cultural neutrality is > > endangered by this fact, and that the solution was all or nothing - > either > > all cultures have a cultural gismu, or none. > > > > There was also a side point that the cultural gismu that /do/ exist are > too > > generic, such as glico "x1 is English/pertains to English-speaking > culture > > in aspect x2", which refers to Brits, U.S.Americans, Canadians, South > > Africans, Australians, and possibly more, or to go the other way 'round= , > > ropno "x1 reflects European culture/nationality/geography/Indo-European > > languages in aspect x2", which refers to the culture and nationality an= d > > geography and language of a region. In response to this second point, a= nd > > the fact that I felt "nothing" was both easier than "all" and actually > > possible (due to the fact that cultures by their very nature are > constantly > > forming, changing, and dissolving), I created culturally neutral lujvo > for > > the individual concepts of nationality, culture, etc.: > > > > Language : banra'a > > Culture : klura'a > > Community : cemra'a > > Religion : jdara'a > > Nationality : selgu'era'a > > Territory : tutra'a > > > > Someone else decided to go with "all" and made fu'ivla using ISO codes > for > > all the countries, languages, etc., which is how banpu'olu came about, > and > > considering the immense effort, time, and discussion spent in the ISO > > code-based fu'ivla making, I'm not surprised my words got lost in the > > shuffle. > > > > (By the way, I would appreciate jbopre following the links and approvin= g > the > > words, and I would even more appreciate them being used.) > > > > There's even a tiki-page about this whole fiasco: which actually > pre-dates > > the group thread: > > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=3DBoo+to+cultural+gismu > > > > -- > > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > > > .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi pat= fu > do > > zo'o > > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > > > -- > > I'm really convinced that cultural gismu are a bad thing, and should > be replaced. But this has some problems: > > 1) Gismu list is not going to change, at least in a very long time. > > 2) I think there is no consensus in which solution is better for the > replacement. > > We could use iso generated fu'ivla, cmevla, jonathan's lujvo... Time > will say which one is prefered by most lojbanists. > > I don't want to bore you more with this old discussion, but if any is > interested in continuing it, I'll be happy to do it. > > mu'o mi'e .leos. > The lujvo I created aren't intended as a solution to the problem of having cultural gismu - they are a intended as a solution for the problem of multiple concepts, such as nationality, culture, religion, language, etc. i= n a culturally neutral way. They don't solve the problem of needing names fo= r the various aforementioned. As an example, to refer to the culture of Greec= e would be {lo klura'a be la.grik.}, and Poland would be {lo tutra'a be la.polskis.}, or to use the fu'ivla, {lo tutra'a be la po'olska} --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu d= o zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --002215046dcfc8b9e004910a78e9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Leo Molas <leos.molas@gmail.c= om> wrote:
2010/9/24 Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@g= mail.com>:
> On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Krzysztof Sobolews= ki <jezuch@interia.pl>
> wrote:
>>
>> Dnia pi=B1tek, 24 wrze=B6nia 2010 o 18:13:27 Jonathan Jones napisa= =B3(a):
>>
>> > lu ma lojbo valsi zoi py.rodak.py li'u drani
>>
>> ki'anai ki'e
>>
>> > .i.ua mi facki<= br> >> >
>> > Polish
>> > (culture) po'olska
>>
>> From the very beginning I was looking for Polish stuff among lojba= n words
>> and now I'm sad to find that there's not even a gismu for = it! What's more,
>> "polska" is a lujvo that means "colors of Polynesia= " ;)

Yeap... we discussed about it some time ago, and there were many
discussions before that. I'm on the "boo to cultural gismu" s= ide, even
when my country (Argentina) has its own gismu (gento).

The ISO codes idea was to replace all the cultural gismu, and start
using fu'ivla instead, created automatically, and also trying to
convince other people to do the same. There were many other proposals,
like jonathan's, and the time will say which one lojbanists prefer
(that and if we do stop using those ugly gismu, that make sad polish
people and people from many other countries)

My part in all that was to create some python scripts that, given a
list of countries/languages/currencies with their iso codes, create
other list with new fu'ivla. (for example, here are all the countries https://spreadsheets.= google.com/ccc?key=3D0Ai4mbIPr2PUwdENVckVaOTJLbVdGVE5SeGJ0MTBTbGc&hl=3D= en
). All of this was based on an algorithm created by xorxes.

>>
>> > Polish
>> > (language) bangrpolska
>>
>> Yeah, but Polish is an inflected language and spelling it as "= ;bangrpolski"
>> (note the ending, from "j=EAzyk polski") was a kind of a= political statement
>> zo'osai On the other hand gugdrpolska is about right in that r= egard, unless
>> you think of "pa=F1stwo polskie" (and if I was really, r= eally mean, I would
>> say gugdrjetcpospolita)
>>
>> > (Above from jbovlaste)
>> > Polish
>> > (Polish language) banpu'olu
>> >
>> > =A0(I believe this one is based on the ISO code.)
>>
>> Well, ISO code for Poland is pl or pol. The latter is a rafsi for = polno,
>> as I demonstrated above...
>> --

Yeap, that one is based on the iso code. One of the benefits of this<= br> fu'ivla is that their pronunciation is not weird, with lots of
concatenated consonants.

>> Ecce Jezuch
>> "10 Com&ments": "God: Im #1. No pix, plz. Uz my= name nicely. Day7holy.
>> Take care of mum&dad. Dont kill, scrU round, steal | lie. Keep= yr hands
>> (&eyz) off wot isnt yrs!'" - Dziesi=EA=E6 przykaza=F1= w SMS-lang
>
> Well, I have to say I am in agreement with your frustrations. Not long= ago,
> someone brought up the fact that Lojban has cultural gismu, but not al= l
> cultures are represented, and that Lojban's cultural neutrality is=
> endangered by this fact, and that the solution was all or nothing - ei= ther
> all cultures have a cultural gismu, or none.
>
> There was also a side point that the cultural gismu that /do/ exist ar= e too
> generic, such as glico "x1 is English/pertains to English-speakin= g culture
> in aspect x2", which refers to Brits, U.S.Americans, Canadians, S= outh
> Africans, Australians, and possibly more, or to go the other way '= round,
> ropno "x1 reflects European culture/nationality/geography/Indo-Eu= ropean
> languages in aspect x2", which refers to the culture and national= ity and
> geography and language of a region. In response to this second point, = and
> the fact that I felt "nothing" was both easier than "al= l" and actually
> possible (due to the fact that cultures by their very nature are const= antly
> forming, changing, and dissolving), I created culturally neutral lujvo= for
> the individual concepts of nationality, culture, etc.:
>
> Language : banra'a
> Culture : klura'a
> Community :=A0cemra'a
> Religion : jdara'a
> Nationality : selgu'era'a
> Territory : tutra'a
>
> Someone else decided to go with "all" and made fu'ivla u= sing ISO codes for
> all the countries, languages, etc., which is how banpu'olu came ab= out, and
> considering the immense effort, time, and discussion spent in the ISO<= br> > code-based fu'ivla making, I'm not surprised my words got lost= in the
> shuffle.
>
> (By the way, I would appreciate jbopre following the links and approvi= ng the
> words, and I would even more appreciate them being used.)
>
> There's even a tiki-page about this whole fiasco: which actually p= re-dates
> the group thread:
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?pa= ge=3DBoo+to+cultural+gismu
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi lu= k. mi patfu do
> zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
> --

I'm really convinced that cultural gismu are a bad thing, and should be replaced. But this has some problems:

1) Gismu list is not going to change, at least in a very long time.

2) I think there is no consensus in which solution is better for the
replacement.

We could use iso generated fu'ivla, cmevla, jonathan's lujvo... Tim= e
will say which one is prefered by most lojbanists.

I don't want to bore you more with this old discussion, but if any is interested in continuing it, I'll be happy to do it.

mu'o mi'e .leos.

The lujvo I= created aren't intended as a solution to the problem of having cultura= l gismu - they are a intended as a solution for the problem of multiple con= cepts, such as nationality, culture, religion, language, etc. in a cultural= ly neutral way.=A0 They don't solve the problem of needing names for th= e various aforementioned. As an example, to refer to the culture of Greece = would be {lo klura'a be la.grik.}, and Poland would be {lo tutra'a = be la.polskis.}, or to use the fu'ivla, {lo tutra'a be la po'ol= ska}

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e= ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu do zo'o=
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--002215046dcfc8b9e004910a78e9--