From lojban+bncCK30vq5WEI6Xm-QEGgRjh6j_@googlegroups.com Tue Sep 07 16:32:47 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ot7eb-0006J7-EQ; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 16:32:46 -0700 Received: by pzk7 with SMTP id 7sf526910pzk.16 for ; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 16:32:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:date:from:to:subject :message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :user-agent:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition; bh=xE6L4PSa5HZUEDL+/p7kt7aAXtgQwVzZlenqyuh5vYM=; b=sgbbZDtJcvjNLbymmL2qOoZ71keL0B5oh073SmjWSpS85XSePfWDDrbU8TVeNuLVgp DhmTxh234whWyzDJTgHXWg0M43LcZCE2t9fECbq5/Tt9otJb9nnkR7bomfzOBIwWNKL8 CxIr/PX31GLl+KFLCIYh3q1QXa9DfaTRzvRDI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition; b=Vv5aSqH0a/KWr6Dm1+kM5hKPWsYmwzCypMu0rfxR1CstcrcnZFEdIiWnIsKs6l8zlY LZWFZvfS+k9jr+JRTuju8J6tiDn5qnKfGJdR30iV83GNWl9mdBxc+vYmYvhGo1O0HG2a 4j6NZJhkjLCUgI2vQ7pRzMsDs0XS/fwm1tnsY= Received: by 10.142.249.30 with SMTP id w30mr129925wfh.20.1283902350795; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 16:32:30 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.199.19 with SMTP id w19ls850737wff.2.p; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 16:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.213.3 with SMTP id l3mr1100047wfg.9.1283902349750; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 16:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.213.3 with SMTP id l3mr1100046wfg.9.1283902349704; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 16:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org (chain.digitalkingdom.org [64.81.66.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id k8si5840066wfa.6.2010.09.07.16.32.29; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 16:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of nobody@digitalkingdom.org designates 64.81.66.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=64.81.66.169; Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ot7eO-0006Iu-G0 for lojban@googlegroups.com; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 16:32:28 -0700 Received: from rlpowell by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ot7eN-0006In-VD for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 16:32:28 -0700 Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 16:32:27 -0700 From: Robin Lee Powell To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: Re: General Commentary On Lojban Community Work (was Re: [lojban] Semi-technical help needed: New CLL diffs.) Message-ID: <20100907233227.GI5990@digitalkingdom.org> Mail-Followup-To: lojban-list@lojban.org References: <20100611173115.GM7321@digitalkingdom.org> <20100730181130.GS4511@digitalkingdom.org> <20100730183052.GA38308@alice.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20100730183052.GA38308@alice.local> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of nobody@digitalkingdom.org designates 64.81.66.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nobody@digitalkingdom.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline How's it going? -Robin On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 12:30:52PM -0600, Alan Post wrote: > I'm working on it, actually. > > I'm part way though, and I can talk about where I'm at or where I'm > not, or could even hand off what I've got if someone wants to pick > it up. > > If not, it will get done as I snatch time. > > -Alan > > On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 11:11:30AM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > As far as I know, nothing has happened with this. I may be missing > > vast activity under the surface, in which case I apologize in > > advance. > > > > On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 10:31:16AM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > > > > http://github.com/dag is the repo for the new CLL, all prettified > > > and broken up and stuff, that a few different people made. > > > > > > The goal/plan is as follows: > > > > > > 1. Turn this into a set of content diffs (not formatting diffs); > > > that is, a complete list of everything that is a change to *content* > > > in the CLL. > > > > > > 2. Give said list to me/the BPFK for approval. > > > > > > 3. Turn the thing into DocBook, if it isn't already. > > > > > > 4. Make it official: post it on the main site at least, and at some > > > point in the near future start publishing it via Lightning Source. > > > > > > I need someone to do step 1. > > > > > > I call this semi-technical because you need to at least understand > > > git, and knowing how to do scripted text processing is probably > > > important. > > > > > > Remo was going to do this, but ey's disappeared. > > > > Here's what happened from my point of view, ignoring my initial > > crappy response, on this new CLL thing: > > > > 1. A bunch of people put in a bunch of work creating the new online > > CLL version. This included me providing access to the master soft > > copy of the print CLL. > > > > 2. It became clear that people wanted to use this version as a > > basis for any new print CLL that might be made. > > > > 3. I pointed out that in its current form it wasn't of any actual > > use for that purpose. I talked to the people involved. They, > > primarily Remo, agreed to modify it as specified above. > > > > 4. Shortly thereafter, Remo *totally disappeared*. No-one has > > heard from em in months. None of the other people involved in that > > discussion have done anything. > > > > 5. I asked the community to help. This was met with much > > enthusiasm. > > > > 6. Nothing actually happened. > > > > So, I guess I'm going to have to find the time for this. Some day. > > *AGAIN*. > > > > While I'm at it, I've seen no changes to the BPFK stuff in about 2 > > months, except the ones I have made. So I guess I'm > > single-handedly stuck with that too. *AGAIN*. > > > > There has been a pattern lately of me refusing to support the pet > > project of every random newbie that shows up on IRC (usually a > > website redesign), and then getting yelled at for being cranky and > > unsupportive. I always say that people should just do the project > > themselves, and if they're still around and supporting it in six > > months, I'll be as supportive as they want me to be. So far, to my > > knowledge, no such conversation has *ever* resulted in this actually > > happening. > > > > I just wanted to point out that this (the CLL work) is the perfect > > example of the standard pattern that leads me to be dismissive of > > everyone's "Oh, I just found Lojban! I'm going to fix everything! > > I'm going to make X! It's going to be awesome!". Here's the > > pattern: > > > > 1. People go and do a bunch of work without bothering to actually > > ask what the community needs. > > > > 2. I point out what the community actually needs relative to what > > they did; this entails a great deal more work. > > > > 3. Shortly thereafter, the person disappears forever, but by this > > time the community has gotten used to using whatever they made. > > > > 4. I start getting requests for maintenance/fixes of whatever it > > is. > > > > This has happened so many times I've totally lost count. Sometimes > > (*very* rarely, I can only think of one example) the person doesn't > > disappear, they just stop supporting whatever it is. I still end > > up with people bugging *me* to fix/maintain it. > > > > I'm very, very tired of this. I'm also having a rough time in my > > personal life lately. I would like nothing more than to see other > > members of the Lojban community actually stand up and get shit done > > over a time period lasting longer than, say, a month. > > > > But mostly I'm writing this so I can stick it on the web and point > > newbies at it when they whine about how obstructionist I'm being. > > > > I am not, and have never been, obstructionist of anything (except > > legally bad things like copyright violation). If you want to do > > something awesome, great: go make it. Host it yourself. Find out > > what the community wants first. If, in six months, you're still > > around and happily supporting it, I'll put it wherever you and the > > community want in shared Lojban space, even right at > > http://www.lojban.org/ (as a side comment, this is exactly how I > > became webmaster of the Lojban community in the first place). > > > > Until then, please show some respect to the people (me and 2 or 3 > > others) who have been carrying this project across the backs (well, > > littered corpses really, given all the disappearances) of people > > like you for the last three decades (although for me it's only been > > one). > > > > Thanks. > > > > -Robin > > > > -- > > http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. > > Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot > > is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" > > is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.