From lojban+bncCIGHwM2rDhCBlpzkBBoE4FLdfQ@googlegroups.com Tue Sep 07 21:03:35 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OtBsg-0004Hv-0j; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 21:03:34 -0700 Received: by gxk9 with SMTP id 9sf9956659gxk.16 for ; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 21:03:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:received:received:received :received:date:from:to:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to :references:mime-version:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition; bh=f6JZWNkLYgdJlY0Q2Fvj1keTiWA0igpH3G6ZMRLW5Dc=; b=6yGecRJHV1F/Gv8QY94ACDQXthnbKmatW3RGm2RWP72EFdX2QcRDtBptAZrEE4fSbK Zu9RR+FqYB2G/pj4Xg2IjslnHV8bj56BFem12gWQHNSB+s36W2HHqc/3cz3Ie/1epSLM AL/g02WHbefCKTzLYcqREKwd1HClHGDBxZIH4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition; b=5W+A62e9dmYGGrxlLElpimE1sVcRgrgoPi5XlOckEfAj+lexHw7X8+wiV8IDCfQlL3 x5XtYBwqJTCQOalJXmP/qNTP657jMBYnLsUzwt7TTHwjKvS6I2kxsFTrGF65PCZXaCMn DB4G/G3KVOi95j1xlSlL3PxVIJrYfVhrBFPvI= Received: by 10.91.164.18 with SMTP id r18mr1135599ago.16.1283918593307; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 21:03:13 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.130.13 with SMTP id h13ls2170114ybn.2.p; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 21:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.149.1 with SMTP id b1mr1881866ybo.44.1283918592050; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 21:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.213.3 with SMTP id l3mr1143179wfg.9.1283918410260; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 21:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.213.3 with SMTP id l3mr1143178wfg.9.1283918410232; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 21:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org (chain.digitalkingdom.org [64.81.66.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id t33si6118919wfc.4.2010.09.07.21.00.09; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 21:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of nobody@digitalkingdom.org designates 64.81.66.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=64.81.66.169; Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OtBpQ-0003oM-7N for lojban@googlegroups.com; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 21:00:08 -0700 Received: from mail-pv0-f181.google.com ([74.125.83.181]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OtBpJ-0003ih-Hg for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 21:00:07 -0700 Received: by pvg16 with SMTP id 16so2957006pvg.40 for ; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 20:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.92.3 with SMTP id p3mr157241wab.77.1283918395550; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 20:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunflowerriver.org (c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net [68.35.167.179]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s5sm14762630wak.12.2010.09.07.20.59.53 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 07 Sep 2010 20:59:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 21:59:51 -0600 From: Alan Post To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: Re: General Commentary On Lojban Community Work (was Re: [lojban] Semi-technical help needed: New CLL diffs.) Message-ID: <20100908035951.GM38255@alice.local> Mail-Followup-To: lojban-list@lojban.org References: <20100611173115.GM7321@digitalkingdom.org> <20100730181130.GS4511@digitalkingdom.org> <20100730183052.GA38308@alice.local> <20100907233227.GI5990@digitalkingdom.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20100907233227.GI5990@digitalkingdom.org> X-Original-Sender: alanpost@sunflowerriver.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of nobody@digitalkingdom.org designates 64.81.66.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nobody@digitalkingdom.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline My favorite change so far is the following: [-forbidden.-] {+forbilien .+} Someone changed forbidden to forbilien, twice no less. My largest challenge in this project are the fact that I did not get consistent conversion of non-ASCII characters, so the wdiff patch is very noisy--anytime a non-ascii character, or an ascii character with a non-ascii representation (e.g., single and double quote) appears, it shows up as a diff. I've managed to remove certain classes of these, and am still finding patterns as I go. I started this process with 4,106 differences. I'm currently at 3,385 differences, which is not a very promising rate of progress. :-( I'm certainly beginning to see more real changes than I am character encoding problems. How would you like to proceed? Looking at my numbers, I'm wondering if I've taken the wrong strategy regarding character encoding and questioning whether I should revisit my pipeline and try to systematically solve the character encoding problem, rather than fixing the results of it. I don't know how many changes to expect to see at the end My guess is that I should see 500 legitimate changes, but the error bar an that makes the number a bit specious. -Alan On Tue, Sep 07, 2010 at 04:32:27PM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > How's it going? > > -Robin > > On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 12:30:52PM -0600, Alan Post wrote: > > I'm working on it, actually. > > > > I'm part way though, and I can talk about where I'm at or where I'm > > not, or could even hand off what I've got if someone wants to pick > > it up. > > > > If not, it will get done as I snatch time. > > > > -Alan > > > > On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 11:11:30AM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > As far as I know, nothing has happened with this. I may be missing > > > vast activity under the surface, in which case I apologize in > > > advance. > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 10:31:16AM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > > > > > > http://github.com/dag is the repo for the new CLL, all prettified > > > > and broken up and stuff, that a few different people made. > > > > > > > > The goal/plan is as follows: > > > > > > > > 1. Turn this into a set of content diffs (not formatting diffs); > > > > that is, a complete list of everything that is a change to *content* > > > > in the CLL. > > > > > > > > 2. Give said list to me/the BPFK for approval. > > > > > > > > 3. Turn the thing into DocBook, if it isn't already. > > > > > > > > 4. Make it official: post it on the main site at least, and at some > > > > point in the near future start publishing it via Lightning Source. > > > > > > > > I need someone to do step 1. > > > > > > > > I call this semi-technical because you need to at least understand > > > > git, and knowing how to do scripted text processing is probably > > > > important. > > > > > > > > Remo was going to do this, but ey's disappeared. > > > > > > Here's what happened from my point of view, ignoring my initial > > > crappy response, on this new CLL thing: > > > > > > 1. A bunch of people put in a bunch of work creating the new online > > > CLL version. This included me providing access to the master soft > > > copy of the print CLL. > > > > > > 2. It became clear that people wanted to use this version as a > > > basis for any new print CLL that might be made. > > > > > > 3. I pointed out that in its current form it wasn't of any actual > > > use for that purpose. I talked to the people involved. They, > > > primarily Remo, agreed to modify it as specified above. > > > > > > 4. Shortly thereafter, Remo *totally disappeared*. No-one has > > > heard from em in months. None of the other people involved in that > > > discussion have done anything. > > > > > > 5. I asked the community to help. This was met with much > > > enthusiasm. > > > > > > 6. Nothing actually happened. > > > > > > So, I guess I'm going to have to find the time for this. Some day. > > > *AGAIN*. > > > > > > While I'm at it, I've seen no changes to the BPFK stuff in about 2 > > > months, except the ones I have made. So I guess I'm > > > single-handedly stuck with that too. *AGAIN*. > > > > > > There has been a pattern lately of me refusing to support the pet > > > project of every random newbie that shows up on IRC (usually a > > > website redesign), and then getting yelled at for being cranky and > > > unsupportive. I always say that people should just do the project > > > themselves, and if they're still around and supporting it in six > > > months, I'll be as supportive as they want me to be. So far, to my > > > knowledge, no such conversation has *ever* resulted in this actually > > > happening. > > > > > > I just wanted to point out that this (the CLL work) is the perfect > > > example of the standard pattern that leads me to be dismissive of > > > everyone's "Oh, I just found Lojban! I'm going to fix everything! > > > I'm going to make X! It's going to be awesome!". Here's the > > > pattern: > > > > > > 1. People go and do a bunch of work without bothering to actually > > > ask what the community needs. > > > > > > 2. I point out what the community actually needs relative to what > > > they did; this entails a great deal more work. > > > > > > 3. Shortly thereafter, the person disappears forever, but by this > > > time the community has gotten used to using whatever they made. > > > > > > 4. I start getting requests for maintenance/fixes of whatever it > > > is. > > > > > > This has happened so many times I've totally lost count. Sometimes > > > (*very* rarely, I can only think of one example) the person doesn't > > > disappear, they just stop supporting whatever it is. I still end > > > up with people bugging *me* to fix/maintain it. > > > > > > I'm very, very tired of this. I'm also having a rough time in my > > > personal life lately. I would like nothing more than to see other > > > members of the Lojban community actually stand up and get shit done > > > over a time period lasting longer than, say, a month. > > > > > > But mostly I'm writing this so I can stick it on the web and point > > > newbies at it when they whine about how obstructionist I'm being. > > > > > > I am not, and have never been, obstructionist of anything (except > > > legally bad things like copyright violation). If you want to do > > > something awesome, great: go make it. Host it yourself. Find out > > > what the community wants first. If, in six months, you're still > > > around and happily supporting it, I'll put it wherever you and the > > > community want in shared Lojban space, even right at > > > http://www.lojban.org/ (as a side comment, this is exactly how I > > > became webmaster of the Lojban community in the first place). > > > > > > Until then, please show some respect to the people (me and 2 or 3 > > > others) who have been carrying this project across the backs (well, > > > littered corpses really, given all the disappearances) of people > > > like you for the last three decades (although for me it's only been > > > one). > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > -Robin > > > > > > -- > > > http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. > > > Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot > > > is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" > > > is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > > -- > > ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. > Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot > is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" > is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- ko djuno fi le do sevzi -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.