From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCh0o7lBBoEZ_bOEg@googlegroups.com Wed Sep 29 14:01:37 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P13mP-0005G6-IT; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:01:36 -0700 Received: by yxs7 with SMTP id 7sf1305161yxs.16 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:01:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Zsj1AcbzrnO7EffoW8C5f9IME2PJtQLSQaxIofpvm+A=; b=gFx2h1JF58QjH9LqlaKpwaPAvdXHtnpPnxL5EDgzPQww53wNc6OZyGAaiLxerf4tQw c8DK8YiNh1UHYdDZ2hYlgJl6ghFAQCdfJeBmn/WDf7Q5fXjPHCBrOZv/9HoKzbdM6HmC EtDt69WYq08fLTe6UTJj2ryb9ExfE41w5c8JM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=J5U0KSsqlRn2lRUZA3eTeFMN2C/6Pe6HzgTXJtGgNjz3W9WyNfrMpPnyJHSSOXP3/+ 2WTgT7Yy87KNGSlc1X9zHumCnbsROAsNfrprjDM55Qr1O3oODclPAeGMEHvxdWYghcZB oXopIpNUXwF3j5HoS7LxzOOwls1JL38U0c/DU= Received: by 10.100.30.7 with SMTP id d7mr156871and.65.1285794081964; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:01:21 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.131.11 with SMTP id i11ls480601ann.5.p; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.159.21 with SMTP id l21mr658758ano.20.1285794081391; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.159.21 with SMTP id l21mr658756ano.20.1285794081347; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-f47.google.com (mail-yw0-f47.google.com [209.85.213.47]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id b25si5887756anb.0.2010.09.29.14.01.20; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.213.47 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.213.47; Received: by ywe9 with SMTP id 9so463786ywe.20 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:01:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.147.131 with SMTP id l3mr2429385ibv.74.1285794080163; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.206.16 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:01:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201009291837.57382.jezuch@interia.pl> References: <201009291837.57382.jezuch@interia.pl> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 15:01:20 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] To Polish fellow lojbanists From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.213.47 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e64ea92c67267304916c4391 --0016e64ea92c67267304916c4391 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/9/29 Krzysztof Sobolewski > Dnia =B6roda, 29 wrze=B6nia 2010 o 09:31:02 Remo Dentato napisa=B3(a): > > Unfortunately I got stuck at finding a direct correspondence between > > lojban and Polish phonemes trying to differentiate between {'} and > > {x}. > > Huh, I was wondering about that too ;) I treat the instructions that {'} = is > "silent h" very literally and don't pronunce it at all ;) (At least in my > mind, as I don't have many occasions to speak lojban) But from what I hea= rd > I seem to be alone in that, and it's kinda problematic because although > there is a theoretical difference between "h" and "ch", it's mostly, if n= ot > entirely, gone from modern Polish. So I have just one mental model for "h= " > and hesitate to use it for both {x} and {'}. > > So could some confirm that using the same sound for {x} and {'} does not > introduce ambiguity? :) > -- > Ecce Jezuch > "Did I have the dream, or did the dream have me?" > -N. Peart > IIRC, pronouncing {'} as "h" was at one point in time optional, in the same way that adding the "i" in "fit" (or any other very short vowel) is optiona= l for difficult consonant clusters, as in {zdani} (ZiDANI). I'm not certain when it was decided the {'} =3D "h" stopped being optional, but I say, if y= ou want to pronounce {mi'e} as {mi,e}, all that really matters is that you're understood. --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu d= o zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016e64ea92c67267304916c4391 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

2010/9/29 Krzysztof Sobolewski <jezuch@interia.pl>=
Dnia =B6roda, 29 wrze=B6nia 2010 o 09:31:02 Remo Dentato napisa=B3(a):
> Unfortunately I got stuck at finding a direct corres= pondence between
> lojban and Polish phonemes trying to differentiate between {'} and=
> {x}.

Huh, I was wondering about that too ;) I treat the instructions that = {'} is "silent h" very literally and don't pronunce it at= all ;) (At least in my mind, as I don't have many occasions to speak l= ojban) But from what I heard I seem to be alone in that, and it's kinda= problematic because although there is a theoretical difference between &qu= ot;h" and "ch", it's mostly, if not entirely, gone from = modern Polish. So I have just one mental model for "h" and hesita= te to use it for both {x} and {'}.

So could some confirm that using the same sound for {x} and {'} does no= t introduce ambiguity? :)
--
Ecce Jezuch
"Did I have the dream, or did the dream have me?"
-N. Peart

IIRC, pronouncing {'} as "h" wa= s at one point in time optional, in the same way that adding the "i&qu= ot; in "fit" (or any other very short vowel) is optional for diff= icult consonant clusters, as in {zdani} (ZiDANI). I'm not certain when = it was decided the {'} =3D "h" stopped being optional, but I = say, if you want to pronounce {mi'e} as {mi,e}, all that really matters= is that you're understood.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le= bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to= the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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