From lojban+bncCJbznvHdFRDN2I7lBBoE-d3hvQ@googlegroups.com Wed Sep 29 14:15:13 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P13zW-00067P-Ra; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:15:13 -0700 Received: by wyb40 with SMTP id 40sf341061wyb.16 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:15:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version:received :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=A3d6oYGijALS81PawNxrhGMZOzcebue6SDDyAhv9YiY=; b=1JGA7iERIgzE1gE4T9pRw8D/lrHUi10lz8ZYUQ4l6r58hhkKoWUWJ38PxJm23etvKz tiIPRdJnXJMDd0p7sWOvgRV/0YxWE403BbdORyDMnB9STfJ55Dupo6Mzhh+Ch9AA2zSB bNJlsKZffgG1vNibUqKcZHkBZ0pxxonHpHWeI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=IcZ8HqMvbhkzgSBGbAIP/z36Q9h7RfbBTUSIIWFssCE2ujl65alffiYHQ1GMnc7lek 7OwWw80E8V5ThLd08WvUoBZIT3UMtGkpesr+herNgHYhEnSmmZDov3Ak1tyZXm9zOLjr uahvjI2xom/o9KCIay+eiD21fYMIfayuzd0ek= Received: by 10.216.145.130 with SMTP id p2mr637799wej.22.1285794893946; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:14:53 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.198.162 with SMTP id v34ls470926wen.3.p; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.178.201 with SMTP id f51mr127702wem.8.1285794892827; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.178.201 with SMTP id f51mr127701wem.8.1285794892793; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f170.google.com (mail-wy0-f170.google.com [74.125.82.170]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id s70si2982139weq.13.2010.09.29.14.14.51; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.170; Received: by mail-wy0-f170.google.com with SMTP id 20so1540665wye.15 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.52.135 with SMTP id e7mr1981212wec.98.1285794868426; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:14:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.8.144 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:14:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201009291837.57382.jezuch@interia.pl> From: MorphemeAddict Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 17:14:07 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] To Polish fellow lojbanists To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6de181c62f82e04916c72e4 --0016e6de181c62f82e04916c72e4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pronouncing {'} was never optional and never silent. The 'optional' part wa= s the actual pronunciation. It is normally as 'h', but other possibilities exist, especially as 'th' or any other voiceless fricative that isn't part of the rest of the Lojban sound system. mu'o mi'e stevon 2010/9/29 Jonathan Jones > > > 2010/9/29 Krzysztof Sobolewski > >> Dnia =B6roda, 29 wrze=B6nia 2010 o 09:31:02 Remo Dentato napisa=B3(a): >> >> > Unfortunately I got stuck at finding a direct correspondence between >> > lojban and Polish phonemes trying to differentiate between {'} and >> > {x}. >> >> Huh, I was wondering about that too ;) I treat the instructions that {'} >> is "silent h" very literally and don't pronunce it at all ;) (At least i= n my >> mind, as I don't have many occasions to speak lojban) But from what I he= ard >> I seem to be alone in that, and it's kinda problematic because although >> there is a theoretical difference between "h" and "ch", it's mostly, if = not >> entirely, gone from modern Polish. So I have just one mental model for "= h" >> and hesitate to use it for both {x} and {'}. >> >> So could some confirm that using the same sound for {x} and {'} does not >> introduce ambiguity? :) >> -- >> Ecce Jezuch >> "Did I have the dream, or did the dream have me?" >> -N. Peart >> > > IIRC, pronouncing {'} as "h" was at one point in time optional, in the sa= me > way that adding the "i" in "fit" (or any other very short vowel) is optio= nal > for difficult consonant clusters, as in {zdani} (ZiDANI). I'm not certain > when it was decided the {'} =3D "h" stopped being optional, but I say, if= you > want to pronounce {mi'e} as {mi,e}, all that really matters is that you'r= e > understood. > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu > do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016e6de181c62f82e04916c72e4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Pronouncing {'} was never optional and never silent. The 'opti= onal' part was the actual pronunciation. It is normally as 'h',= but other possibilities exist, especially as 'th' or any other voi= celess fricative that isn't part of the rest of the Lojban sound system= .
=A0
mu'o mi'e stevon

2010/9/29 Jonathan Jones <<= a href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com">eyeonus@gmail.com>


2010/9/29 Krzysztof Sobolewski <jezuch@interia.pl>= ;
Dnia =B6roda, 29 wrz= e=B6nia 2010 o 09:31:02 Remo Dentato napisa=B3(a):=20

> Unfortunately I got stuck at finding a direct correspondence betw= een
> lojban and Polish phonemes trying to differentiate between {= 9;} and
> {x}.

Huh, I was wondering about that too ;) I = treat the instructions that {'} is "silent h" very literally = and don't pronunce it at all ;) (At least in my mind, as I don't ha= ve many occasions to speak lojban) But from what I heard I seem to be alone= in that, and it's kinda problematic because although there is a theore= tical difference between "h" and "ch", it's mostly,= if not entirely, gone from modern Polish. So I have just one mental model = for "h" and hesitate to use it for both {x} and {'}.

So could some confirm that using the same sound for {x} and {'} doe= s not introduce ambiguity? :)
--
Ecce Jezuch<= br>"Did I have the dream, or did the dream have me?"
-N. Peart=

IIRC, pronouncing {'} as &quo= t;h" was at one point in time optional, in the same way that adding th= e "i" in "fit" (or any other very short vowel) is optio= nal for difficult consonant clusters, as in {zdani} (ZiDANI). I'm not c= ertain when it was decided the {'} =3D "h" stopped being opti= onal, but I say, if you want to pronounce {mi'e} as {mi,e}, all that re= ally matters is that you're understood.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a&#= 39;o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )= =20


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