From lojban+bncCN673cmqFBDvvI_lBBoEA317Yg@googlegroups.com Wed Sep 29 17:49:02 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P17KV-0001YV-FM; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 17:49:02 -0700 Received: by yxs7 with SMTP id 7sf1367148yxs.16 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 17:48:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:x-vr-score :x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score:message-id:date:from:organization :user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=QcN6hII4dnIoMYWsjhYM7TtOTpmnDfG4ngwo9LEVCKk=; b=H1mhN/uf7r4V5A232udfhHBad6yNmrdSyig0Zm8kj5nBNzddT+0BMepfWM3SEuTPfB ZScH6bpRR/WZF+3tA1Hf/1H5xog8PmO34pLLk3psfpkzGa7QpCjCxR13q/f4CeH2s/X0 W4+0mjSk1CHSC1V+XbACQoaTDbo+GP06t8VsA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-vr-score:x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score :message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:x-accept-language :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=v4/hqNJ7hX8LHPsFr7tuy1aiFEbfbuiibInmAZwhUPjHHHguzoa/oy3x2ziYQm8Q3H Rg9dT3O4yAvfoK9/DNJ7gUXIeOsXJGEwm4iIjo3O3x2KUWh0vx3OBZMwhV+yCjob42wz PBcIYGpQQHSwqJY9AOv/0CqVMNdf+sag3YBaY= Received: by 10.101.27.33 with SMTP id e33mr181474anj.57.1285807727619; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 17:48:47 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.86.11 with SMTP id j11ls554466anb.4.p; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 17:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.195.15 with SMTP id s15mr1049277anf.56.1285807727080; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 17:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.195.15 with SMTP id s15mr1049274anf.56.1285807726738; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 17:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastrmmtao105.cox.net (eastrmmtao105.cox.net [68.230.240.47]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id q4si6251581ane.6.2010.09.29.17.48.46; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 17:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.47 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) client-ip=68.230.240.47; Received: from eastrmimpo01.cox.net ([68.1.16.119]) by eastrmmtao105.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20100930004846.UZMI14030.eastrmmtao105.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 20:48:46 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.100] ([70.179.118.163]) by eastrmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id Cool1f00U3Xcbvq02oolhK; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 20:48:46 -0400 X-VR-Score: -80.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=Ve2E6xT+YqPv90BJPa9Z7cy3eVbY/842O+E6p2NWdSs= c=1 sm=1 a=16vxQhsou_YA:10 a=-CRmgG0JhlAA:10 a=7ls7RdmwX4RvLZNVULbZcg==:17 a=8pif782wAAAA:8 a=8YJikuA2AAAA:8 a=TkGczdrZGO-jp9ft58kA:9 a=tujk1VlYaZUqw9OSxX4A:7 a=PQAgKB_VZRL1TVjMfUmwOYbU0L4A:4 a=jiObf9B0YAUA:10 a=dxBpO5_FDU0A:10 a=7ls7RdmwX4RvLZNVULbZcg==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <4CA3DE6F.2050507@lojban.org> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 20:48:47 -0400 From: "Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG" Organization: The Logical Language Group, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] To Polish fellow lojbanists References: <201009291837.57382.jezuch@interia.pl> <201009291949.20202.jezuch@interia.pl> In-Reply-To: <201009291949.20202.jezuch@interia.pl> X-Original-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.47 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) smtp.mail=lojbab@lojban.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Krzysztof Sobolewski wrote: > Dnia =B6roda, 29 wrze=B6nia 2010 o 19:13:54 Jorge Llamb=EDas napisa=B3(a)= : >=20 >>2010/9/29 Krzysztof Sobolewski : >> >>>So could some confirm that using the same sound for {x} and {'} does not= introduce ambiguity? :) >> >>It introduces plenty of ambiguity. Just consider any CV'V cmavo for a >>start, which becomes indistinguishable from the two cmavo CV xV. >=20 >=20 > Well then, I think I'll stick with silent {'}. But this is problematic wi= th things like {du'u} or {zo'o}. Is there any hope for people who don't see= (hear) any difference between [x] and [h] (both in IPA, according to Wikip= edia)? ;) I haven't been following this, but "'" can be any voiceless glide=20 (approximant), not necessarily IPA "h". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approximant_consonant discusses this, and gives several examples. It says this about "h" > Occasionally, the glottal "fricatives" are called approximants, since > [h] typically has no more frication than voiceless approximants, but > they are often phonations of the glottis without any accompanying > manner or place of articulation. suggesting that the thing to avoid in distinguishing x and h is the=20 noticeable frication. Since I don't know Polish, I can't help beyond=20 that point. But perhaps our Russian native speakers have a similar=20 problem and could comment. (People have at times chosen to express the rule as "any non-lojbanic=20 voiceless consonant", with the most striking example being someone here=20 in Virginia who used a voiceless "th" fricative. As I recall, it=20 sounded real funny, but it was understandable.) lojbab --=20 Bob LeChevalier lojbab@lojban.org www.lojban.org President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.