From lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxClnZHlBBoEsCh_FA@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 30 01:47:48 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P1Eno-0007Ry-L8; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 01:47:47 -0700 Received: by wwe15 with SMTP id 15sf445938wwe.16 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 01:47:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=RBUHoMbNxXefkRdIBHCZLqk5fctQPAlPlPjcy9jSELM=; b=RNYm+ODiDl+7cMPKO/OGT5/cWtp0vNriluz0FEVk5NX+Ve51CpcHcKXCfrTIaceUUE d3SUZGpqoVggHPmyiZJpr+dKFFJUfNWuWvWdCOaSfM6eV/PsmsLSCoHFJ3bXc7Mx2ejW bUR7EtPiXXW/e9HmyCOhJJ7YC3iotpQUuYwJI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=hVUC5DPcZAxhIwrho/GE5FQZowK2zrtB0EmQXohuVZ4cyuBRAB0lwHZOs8UT+JG2qa Wn8jaCpK8mH0B+3SHjgN2cNLvmGTh6sULoI9YwvdRmuEKeTbqaHE+0HsIgz98X1moUtU 6ORplt73XPd5OmExUqWxopTaATgSCBYdTHCHQ= Received: by 10.216.145.135 with SMTP id p7mr698897wej.26.1285836453039; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 01:47:33 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.242.202 with SMTP id i52ls657492wer.0.p; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 01:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.154.82 with SMTP id g60mr161279wek.11.1285836451707; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 01:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.154.82 with SMTP id g60mr161278wek.11.1285836451679; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 01:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f175.google.com (mail-wy0-f175.google.com [74.125.82.175]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id o46si3187284weq.2.2010.09.30.01.47.30; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 01:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.175; Received: by mail-wy0-f175.google.com with SMTP id 35so1703947wyb.20 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 01:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.138.134 with SMTP id a6mr2846436wbu.68.1285836450422; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 01:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [80.193.150.209] (cpc1-pres4-0-0-cust208.pres.cable.virginmedia.com [80.193.150.209]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v44sm6116854weq.4.2010.09.30.01.47.28 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 30 Sep 2010 01:47:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4CA44E9D.4090804@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 09:47:25 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] To Polish fellow lojbanists References: <201009291837.57382.jezuch@interia.pl> <201009291949.20202.jezuch@interia.pl> <4CA3DE6F.2050507@lojban.org> In-Reply-To: <4CA3DE6F.2050507@lojban.org> X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's phonetically impractical to get [h] between most vowels, because a cri= terion for [h] is that there is no aerodynamically significant supraglottal= narrowing of stricture. So while [h] for /'/ in /e'e/ or /y'y/ is practica= ble, [h] for /'/ in, say, /o'o/ or /u'u/ or /i'i/ is not (because the flank= ing vowels create aerodynamically significant supraglottal stricture). One can easily observe that [aha] and [axa] are rather easy to differentiat= e, whereas /i'i/ and /ixi/ will be effectively indistinguishable (as [a=C3= =A7a]) unless a very different allophone of /'/, such as [=CE=B8], is used. --And. Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG, On 30/09/2010 01:48: > Krzysztof Sobolewski wrote: >> Dnia =C5=9Broda, 29 wrze=C5=9Bnia 2010 o 19:13:54 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas na= pisa=C5=82(a): >> >>> 2010/9/29 Krzysztof Sobolewski : >>> >>>> So could some confirm that using the same sound for {x} and {'} does= =20 >>>> not introduce ambiguity? :) >>> >>> It introduces plenty of ambiguity. Just consider any CV'V cmavo for a >>> start, which becomes indistinguishable from the two cmavo CV xV. >> >> >> Well then, I think I'll stick with silent {'}. But this is problematic= =20 >> with things like {du'u} or {zo'o}. Is there any hope for people who=20 >> don't see (hear) any difference between [x] and [h] (both in IPA,=20 >> according to Wikipedia)? ;) >=20 > I haven't been following this, but "'" can be any voiceless glide=20 > (approximant), not necessarily IPA "h". >=20 > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approximant_consonant > discusses this, and gives several examples. It says this about "h" >> Occasionally, the glottal "fricatives" are called approximants, since >> [h] typically has no more frication than voiceless approximants, but > > they are often phonations of the glottis without any accompanying > > manner or place of articulation. >=20 > suggesting that the thing to avoid in distinguishing x and h is the=20 > noticeable frication. Since I don't know Polish, I can't help beyond=20 > that point. But perhaps our Russian native speakers have a similar=20 > problem and could comment. >=20 > (People have at times chosen to express the rule as "any non-lojbanic=20 > voiceless consonant", with the most striking example being someone here= =20 > in Virginia who used a voiceless "th" fricative. As I recall, it=20 > sounded real funny, but it was understandable.) >=20 > lojbab >=20 >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.