From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDvn5LlBBoEGS0Uiw@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 30 06:26:23 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P1J9N-0008Ub-PK; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 06:26:23 -0700 Received: by gya1 with SMTP id 1sf2108125gya.16 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 06:26:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Nh0LzL0ChhttO6H/6XzBqTfW01d+IHKZD/OlfVeYd/Q=; b=hsXmE0YWqxSwiTAck/BMUUw2AMchgw0/YzL9ZPh7LPFuNuNuA9q5hlWo2uKN/PRb8J sngrYe2vCQsc7qKW10a6pbgKSWyE0WAowKJ9ftpEevh3qSKi7LUcWL8ZRQJSG5EqwzUb HaisWmRAgvI5otSe1jRnLV9CoxwjczTJiwHN4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=xO2sMq5CzDjJty7wH1j97W/7+4yCNckgwmBqeULMYuLVpbx91paDxzMOaRu/emh02c tkEkSLkRHjhSH0Ru+h4euXpclHWZw2P2mAK+RtSi2uqJC4w+bMHFKvWVS7/4Bs4NJJ9+ /Mqbh1LCSeAfwD9cLT2EV7K+N7XoObde80ESA= Received: by 10.90.117.8 with SMTP id p8mr38741agc.38.1285853167266; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 06:26:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.125.77 with SMTP id x13ls906689ibr.1.p; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 06:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.36.73 with SMTP id s9mr750787ibd.14.1285853166335; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 06:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.36.73 with SMTP id s9mr750785ibd.14.1285853165931; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 06:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f172.google.com (mail-iw0-f172.google.com [209.85.214.172]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id cn5si6177392ibb.6.2010.09.30.06.26.04; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 06:26:04 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.172 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.172; Received: by mail-iw0-f172.google.com with SMTP id 3so2292018iwn.3 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 06:26:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.147.202 with SMTP id m10mr3798227ibv.2.1285853164436; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 06:26:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.48.79 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 06:26:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4CA44E9D.4090804@gmail.com> References: <201009291837.57382.jezuch@interia.pl> <201009291949.20202.jezuch@interia.pl> <4CA3DE6F.2050507@lojban.org> <4CA44E9D.4090804@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 09:26:04 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] To Polish fellow lojbanists From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.172 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001485ea873c197cca04917a0589 --001485ea873c197cca04917a0589 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable weird. I didn't understand a thing that you said, and maybe I'm mispronouncing "x" but I can discern a difference between /i'i/ and /ixi/. I judge which one I'm hearing based on whether or not I can hear that throat rattling sound. On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 4:47 AM, And Rosta wrote: > It's phonetically impractical to get [h] between most vowels, because a > criterion for [h] is that there is no aerodynamically significant > supraglottal narrowing of stricture. So while [h] for /'/ in /e'e/ or /y'= y/ > is practicable, [h] for /'/ in, say, /o'o/ or /u'u/ or /i'i/ is not (beca= use > the flanking vowels create aerodynamically significant supraglottal > stricture). > > One can easily observe that [aha] and [axa] are rather easy to > differentiate, whereas /i'i/ and /ixi/ will be effectively indistinguisha= ble > (as [a=C3=A7a]) unless a very different allophone of /'/, such as [=CE=B8= ], is used. > > --And. > > Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG, On 30/09/2010 01:48: > > Krzysztof Sobolewski wrote: >> >>> Dnia =C5=9Broda, 29 wrze=C5=9Bnia 2010 o 19:13:54 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas n= apisa=C5=82(a): >>> >>> 2010/9/29 Krzysztof Sobolewski : >>>> >>>> So could some confirm that using the same sound for {x} and {'} does >>>>> not introduce ambiguity? :) >>>>> >>>> >>>> It introduces plenty of ambiguity. Just consider any CV'V cmavo for a >>>> start, which becomes indistinguishable from the two cmavo CV xV. >>>> >>> >>> >>> Well then, I think I'll stick with silent {'}. But this is problematic >>> with things like {du'u} or {zo'o}. Is there any hope for people who don= 't >>> see (hear) any difference between [x] and [h] (both in IPA, according t= o >>> Wikipedia)? ;) >>> >> >> I haven't been following this, but "'" can be any voiceless glide >> (approximant), not necessarily IPA "h". >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approximant_consonant >> discusses this, and gives several examples. It says this about "h" >> >>> Occasionally, the glottal "fricatives" are called approximants, since >>> [h] typically has no more frication than voiceless approximants, but >>> >> > they are often phonations of the glottis without any accompanying >> > manner or place of articulation. >> >> suggesting that the thing to avoid in distinguishing x and h is the >> noticeable frication. Since I don't know Polish, I can't help beyond th= at >> point. But perhaps our Russian native speakers have a similar problem a= nd >> could comment. >> >> (People have at times chosen to express the rule as "any non-lojbanic >> voiceless consonant", with the most striking example being someone here = in >> Virginia who used a voiceless "th" fricative. As I recall, it sounded r= eal >> funny, but it was understandable.) >> >> lojbab >> >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --001485ea873c197cca04917a0589 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable weird. =C2=A0I didn't understand a thing that you said, and maybe I'= ;m mispronouncing "x" but I can discern a difference between /i&#= 39;i/ and /ixi/. =C2=A0I judge which one I'm hearing based on whether o= r not I can hear that throat rattling sound. =C2=A0

On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 4:47 AM, And Rosta <= span dir=3D"ltr"><and.rosta@gmail= .com> wrote:
It's phonetically impractical to get [h] between most vowels, because a= criterion for [h] is that there is no aerodynamically significant supraglo= ttal narrowing of stricture. So while [h] for /'/ in /e'e/ or /y= 9;y/ is practicable, [h] for /'/ in, say, /o'o/ or /u'u/ or /i&= #39;i/ is not (because the flanking vowels create aerodynamically significa= nt supraglottal stricture).

One can easily observe that [aha] and [axa] are rather easy to differentiat= e, whereas /i'i/ and /ixi/ will be effectively indistinguishable (as [a= =C3=A7a]) unless a very different allophone of /'/, such as [=CE=B8], i= s used.

--And.

Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG, On 30/09/2010 01:48:

Krzysztof Sobolewski wrote:
Dnia =C5=9Broda, 29 wrze=C5=9Bnia 2010 o 19:13:54 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas napis= a=C5=82(a):

2010/9/29 Krzysztof Sobolewski <jezuch@interia.pl>:

So could some confirm that using the same sound for {x} and {'} does no= t introduce ambiguity? :)

It introduces plenty of ambiguity. Just consider any CV'V cmavo for a start, which becomes indistinguishable from the two cmavo CV xV.


Well then, I think I'll stick with silent {'}. But this is problema= tic with things like {du'u} or {zo'o}. Is there any hope for people= who don't see (hear) any difference between [x] and [h] (both in IPA, = according to Wikipedia)? ;)

I haven't been following this, but "'" can be any voicele= ss glide (approximant), not necessarily IPA "h".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approximant_consonant
discusses this, and gives several examples. =C2=A0It says this about "= h"
Occasionally, the glottal "fricatives" are called approximants, s= ince
[h] typically has no more frication than voiceless approximants, but
=C2=A0> they are often phonations of the glottis without any accompanyin= g
=C2=A0> manner or place of articulation.

suggesting that the thing to avoid in distinguishing x and h is the noticea= ble frication. =C2=A0Since I don't know Polish, I can't help beyond= that point. =C2=A0But perhaps our Russian native speakers have a similar p= roblem and could comment.

(People have at times chosen to express the rule as "any non-lojbanic = voiceless consonant", with the most striking example being someone her= e in Virginia who used a voiceless "th" fricative. =C2=A0As I rec= all, it sounded real funny, but it was understandable.)

lojbab



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