From lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxDS3ZPlBBoEZP2pbw@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 30 13:11:14 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P1PTC-0005JQ-IY; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 13:11:14 -0700 Received: by wyb40 with SMTP id 40sf619340wyb.16 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 13:11:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=4FjbLK2Pez5zDijmn3jgd3ygVeIcIKspPGbYPArPk+s=; b=IeIAN0wIb7MpgzG+vkStKoXr3aqihk9x3TAn2a/sT7kScRlH9gDN2sCj+0dsmKU6Ux O3lLGPmqlyGHkWbyPFDHN7kOhB839OV6DKkFmwN/S8MeVANVC7zXa9RP2DxzGgK4xnfH tbPsq8e0V76tdLFey5E4cusngmeEOM+GDl3F4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=vOdX/LJxo/C3rcubedKCC0oDdU8E7GBAEc7ncLImLbXLJry4HcOGfv7TdL1XTOWKyg OY27avqv6QEBOYFa1nIVUdxUqLfh7STj2pbc9ToPQKW48cbGLYiQ8tf54ItERBV8wvHi 03Ud7lihRhS0POqFmcrBJiGo8EQN/VT9iRdwk= Received: by 10.216.145.9 with SMTP id o9mr992716wej.0.1285877458113; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 13:10:58 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.39.10 with SMTP id d10ls818456wbe.2.p; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 13:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.177.205 with SMTP id d55mr149815wem.9.1285877456361; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 13:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.177.205 with SMTP id d55mr149814wem.9.1285877456341; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 13:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f179.google.com (mail-wy0-f179.google.com [74.125.82.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id x37si82381weq.8.2010.09.30.13.10.55; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 13:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.179; Received: by mail-wy0-f179.google.com with SMTP id 42so2301325wyb.38 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 13:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.54.132 with SMTP id i4mr1210634wec.50.1285877455174; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 13:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [80.193.150.209] (cpc1-pres4-0-0-cust208.pres.cable.virginmedia.com [80.193.150.209]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k7sm198510wej.2.2010.09.30.13.10.52 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 30 Sep 2010 13:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4CA4EECB.90309@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 21:10:51 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] To Polish fellow lojbanists References: <201009291837.57382.jezuch@interia.pl> <201009291949.20202.jezuch@interia.pl> <4CA3DE6F.2050507@lojban.org> <4CA44E9D.4090804@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Luke Bergen, On 30/09/2010 14:26: > weird. I didn't understand a thing that you said, and maybe I'm=20 > mispronouncing "x" but I can discern a difference between /i'i/ and=20 > /ixi/. I judge which one I'm hearing based on whether or not I can hear= =20 > that throat rattling sound. =20 There'll not be any rattling in your throat, but it might be that you produ= ce /x/ in /ixi/ with a tighter constriction than /'/ in /i'i/, and that thi= s causes saliva to vibrate in the narrow channel, giving rise to the phonet= ic phenomenon called 'scrape'. Stevo: > And: I have no problem differentiating between {i'i} and {ixi}. With regard to differentiating in your speech, one possibility is that you = might be deluded (as people often are about their own speech), and another,= more likely, is that you have fixed on allophones that are reliably distin= ct. Perhaps you have [=CE=B8] in /i'i/; or perhaps you have a scrapey [x] i= n /ixi/.=20 With regard to differentiating in your hearing, I would wager that you can'= t reliably differentiate between /x/ and voiceless glide realizations of /'= / in /i_i/; afaik no language has minimal pairs contrasting voiceless appro= ximants and fricatives. --And. =20 > On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 4:47 AM, And Rosta > wrote: >=20 > It's phonetically impractical to get [h] between most vowels, > because a criterion for [h] is that there is no aerodynamically > significant supraglottal narrowing of stricture. So while [h] for > /'/ in /e'e/ or /y'y/ is practicable, [h] for /'/ in, say, /o'o/ or > /u'u/ or /i'i/ is not (because the flanking vowels create > aerodynamically significant supraglottal stricture). >=20 > One can easily observe that [aha] and [axa] are rather easy to > differentiate, whereas /i'i/ and /ixi/ will be effectively > indistinguishable (as [a=C3=A7a]) unless a very different allophone o= f > /'/, such as [=CE=B8], is used. >=20 > --And. >=20 > Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG, On 30/09/2010 01:48: >=20 > Krzysztof Sobolewski wrote: >=20 > Dnia =C5=9Broda, 29 wrze=C5=9Bnia 2010 o 19:13:54 Jorge Llamb= =C3=ADas > napisa=C5=82(a): >=20 > 2010/9/29 Krzysztof Sobolewski >: >=20 > So could some confirm that using the same sound for > {x} and {'} does not introduce ambiguity? :) >=20 >=20 > It introduces plenty of ambiguity. Just consider any > CV'V cmavo for a > start, which becomes indistinguishable from the two > cmavo CV xV. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Well then, I think I'll stick with silent {'}. But this is > problematic with things like {du'u} or {zo'o}. Is there any > hope for people who don't see (hear) any difference between > [x] and [h] (both in IPA, according to Wikipedia)? ;) >=20 >=20 > I haven't been following this, but "'" can be any voiceless > glide (approximant), not necessarily IPA "h". >=20 > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approximant_consonant > discusses this, and gives several examples. It says this about "= h" >=20 > Occasionally, the glottal "fricatives" are called > approximants, since > [h] typically has no more frication than voiceless > approximants, but >=20 > > they are often phonations of the glottis without any accompany= ing > > manner or place of articulation. >=20 > suggesting that the thing to avoid in distinguishing x and h is > the noticeable frication. Since I don't know Polish, I can't > help beyond that point. But perhaps our Russian native speakers > have a similar problem and could comment. >=20 > (People have at times chosen to express the rule as "any > non-lojbanic voiceless consonant", with the most striking > example being someone here in Virginia who used a voiceless "th" > fricative. As I recall, it sounded real funny, but it was > understandable.) >=20 > lojbab >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com > . > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >=20 >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=20 > Groups "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at=20 > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.