From lojban+bncCK30vq5WEM-LpuQEGgSaroj9@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 09 18:11:58 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ots9i-0007Hn-Vr; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:11:58 -0700 Received: by pzk7 with SMTP id 7sf166521pzk.16 for ; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:11:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:date:from:to:subject:message-id :references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition; bh=7kQPvxC8Zt3qJWTDcldI1I94r2HD9rncmLgYAWyXufA=; b=ChwBs2Rb86NYkcI+GrtZDZhD5gK8U3k9cZgfytt/w4pawL8K28p9vmxi/arD9Y7Q64 9ZdYY0TGQXTbM405NXQBk86T0mDTD/B6Ts/sQ0ZTsOX7BAjVsqTSPKOzf6z53WxQybrK xeV6Lm7ZOvKWGD6tIYJVH1VmUcAeFt9StWd4M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition; b=sni72CEAKiL0ukEr0+7nTOqejs/KOJtb3XhpH96YVOKwvEdGqmfGAJOHrYHglHEHSh Kp8GoLHOqSAeVJcigZtJkGWNg6bdBXWx25zeFzbUmhUvMW7NQJceFyZU1v3B0oaISSZM KFNHNi42oc5XtA4OiON4gxvYpURyLebnd/SCo= Received: by 10.115.38.30 with SMTP id q30mr2347waj.22.1284081103280; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:11:43 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.115.98.19 with SMTP id a19ls8414986wam.1.p; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.26.16 with SMTP id 16mr5054waz.46.1284081102368; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.26.16 with SMTP id 16mr5053waz.46.1284081102330; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org (chain.digitalkingdom.org [64.81.66.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id r11si2391445waj.4.2010.09.09.18.11.42; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 64.81.66.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=64.81.66.169; Received: from rlpowell by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ots9V-0007HX-Bd for lojban@googlegroups.com; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:11:41 -0700 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 18:11:41 -0700 From: Robin Lee Powell To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: [lojban] Teaching methods, especially WRT terminators, and validation thereof Message-ID: <20100910011141.GS20652@digitalkingdom.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 64.81.66.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline On Thu, Sep 09, 2010 at 03:54:58PM -0700, Lindar wrote: > While you and others may not agree, I have spent a LOT of time in > the past two months teaching students, and I find that they all > have a much better grasp of terminators, and thus have fewer > problems understanding the grammar in general, when {cu} is not > taught. It is, in my opinion, a crutch that people rely upon far > too much. One should learn "is not" before "isn't" and "I am" > before "I'm" lest people for some reason start confusing > your/you're in both meaning and pronunciation. =D > > Also, CLL is not meant for learning. It's a lovely resource, but > many in the modern and active teaching community including myself > and kribacr believe that it teaches Lojban incorrectly, and starts > habits which result in very bad Lojban (namely in that a > frighteningly large number of people believe {cu} is required at > all ever). I can't say much for L4B, except that I prefer the more > modern Wave Lesson to it as I have seen first hand how it produces > better results and speakers with a better understanding of the > language. On the one hand, I've become interested in y'all's way of teaching terminators; I can see the advantages. On the other hand, I'd really like you to stop saying things like "it produces better results and speakers with a better understanding of the language" until you've shown me where all these people who speak it better than me or clsn or Broca or xorxes are. (Or, at least, myself at my best; I'm out of practice, but I've spoken in the language continuously for hours in the past.) What you've got, as far as I can tell, is an interesting pedagogical technique that produces good early results, but is totally untested as to its results when students try to reach real expertise. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me. -Robin -- http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. 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