From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhDkjqbkBBoE1lLBgA@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 09 18:18:46 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OtsGH-0007VW-Nc; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:18:46 -0700 Received: by wwe15 with SMTP id 15sf392022wwe.16 for ; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:18:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=nu1nBZ9xgMyMzQWOf4xabmfdMkla0VxbocxnHuLGEFk=; b=3TqPoADopFheRL5knZqjkROt0kCOxVbitgicbRCvfZ7IO4LEPLxfyMQ+ib7Kft3F4g fTIcnukrdYEOPwqCBR8NPNOWbVqWSzjwvquMs1g0pU1CCX37nMUhdOZAzAp8tr23ysnS 7skZMtyjenpbgYDqufsh1uSgfOnDyeKHdky70= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=wCXBRlew45opIOd7imyqQiLcF4eUce1a4WyHDw4RukW44aPzXJ+FF3UBlmkrIaD5Z8 msSLqrjU2EnRAQE/qaKp+jk3qLs7GxK741NKNvq8RqwfssBg6X1GHIYPXwZjg663fHY1 JTsR4qtR2JEVrTzo1rpXkXBSS1ihxNHNqNcgI= Received: by 10.216.144.67 with SMTP id m45mr7122wej.2.1284081509004; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:18:29 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.92.203 with SMTP id s11ls2663904wbm.1.p; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.8.94 with SMTP id g30mr10155wbg.9.1284081508061; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.8.94 with SMTP id g30mr10154wbg.9.1284081508028; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f42.google.com (mail-ww0-f42.google.com [74.125.82.42]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id ey20si671162wbb.6.2010.09.09.18.18.26; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.42 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.42; Received: by mail-ww0-f42.google.com with SMTP id 34so69990wwb.1 for ; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:18:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.145.198 with SMTP id p48mr79384wej.18.1284081506822; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.22.199 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Sep 2010 18:18:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20100910011141.GS20652@digitalkingdom.org> References: <20100910011141.GS20652@digitalkingdom.org> Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 19:18:26 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Teaching methods, especially WRT terminators, and validation thereof From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d99b5f13a8ca048fdd86ef --0016e6d99b5f13a8ca048fdd86ef Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 7:11 PM, Robin Lee Powell < rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote: > On Thu, Sep 09, 2010 at 03:54:58PM -0700, Lindar wrote: > > While you and others may not agree, I have spent a LOT of time in > > the past two months teaching students, and I find that they all > > have a much better grasp of terminators, and thus have fewer > > problems understanding the grammar in general, when {cu} is not > > taught. It is, in my opinion, a crutch that people rely upon far > > too much. One should learn "is not" before "isn't" and "I am" > > before "I'm" lest people for some reason start confusing > > your/you're in both meaning and pronunciation. =D > > > > Also, CLL is not meant for learning. It's a lovely resource, but > > many in the modern and active teaching community including myself > > and kribacr believe that it teaches Lojban incorrectly, and starts > > habits which result in very bad Lojban (namely in that a > > frighteningly large number of people believe {cu} is required at > > all ever). I can't say much for L4B, except that I prefer the more > > modern Wave Lesson to it as I have seen first hand how it produces > > better results and speakers with a better understanding of the > > language. > > On the one hand, I've become interested in y'all's way of teaching > terminators; I can see the advantages. > > On the other hand, I'd really like you to stop saying things like > "it produces better results and speakers with a better understanding > of the language" until you've shown me where all these people who > speak it better than me or clsn or Broca or xorxes are. > > (Or, at least, myself at my best; I'm out of practice, but I've > spoken in the language continuously for hours in the past.) > > What you've got, as far as I can tell, is an interesting pedagogical > technique that produces good early results, but is totally untested > as to its results when students try to reach real expertise. > > If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me. > > -Robin > The last time I was in the IRC room, his first utterance directed at me was to speak English so he could understand what was being said. His second was to bring up the {ku} vs. {cu} topic out of nowhere. I think he feels rather strongly about this issue. -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e6d99b5f13a8ca048fdd86ef Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 7:11 PM, Robin Lee Powell= <rlpow= ell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
On Thu, Sep 09, 2010 at 03:54:58PM -0700, Lindar wrote:
> While you and others may not agree, I have spent a LOT of time in
> the past two months teaching students, and I find that they all
> have a much better grasp of terminators, and thus have fewer
> problems understanding the grammar in general, when {cu} is not
> taught. It is, in my opinion, a crutch that people rely upon far
> too much. One should learn "is not" before "isn't&q= uot; and "I am"
> before "I'm" lest people for some reason start confusing=
> your/you're in both meaning and pronunciation. =3DD
>
> Also, CLL is not meant for learning. It's a lovely resource, but > many in the modern and active teaching community including myself
> and kribacr believe that it teaches Lojban incorrectly, and starts
> habits which result in very bad Lojban (namely in that a
> frighteningly large number of people believe {cu} is required at
> all ever). I can't say much for L4B, except that I prefer the more=
> modern Wave Lesson to it as I have seen first hand how it produces
> better results and speakers with a better understanding of the
> language.

On the one hand, I've become interested in y'all's way of teach= ing
terminators; I can see the advantages.

On the other hand, I'd really like you to stop saying things like
"it produces better results and speakers with a better understanding of the language" until you've shown me where all these people who<= br> speak it better than me or clsn or Broca or xorxes are.

(Or, at least, myself at my best; I'm out of practice, but I've
spoken in the language continuously for hours in the past.)

What you've got, as far as I can tell, is an interesting pedagogical technique that produces good early results, but is totally untested
as to its results when students try to reach real expertise.

If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.

-Robin

The last time I was in the IRC room, his fi= rst utterance directed at me was to speak English so he could understand wh= at was being said. His second was to bring up the {ku} vs. {cu} topic out o= f nowhere. I think he feels rather strongly about this issue.=A0


--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a&#= 39;o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu

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