From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDb08rkBBoEzevD9A@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 16 16:37:47 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OwO1D-0000qP-Qp; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:37:47 -0700 Received: by gya1 with SMTP id 1sf1513964gya.16 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:37:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Pb6i27CQvQvJ21Atcci+0pnLeFA+vlW1yPYKNnHiK7Y=; b=smfLsTyYs3DgXQHEOn+IClumhVAb6O+dNTOTAspclDCphRw1W9srPI4J0MXqlQp8tW UalBFpD67T6pDkPaRPY7+pm4qTWn+dQ0MbFsoAfX1GgMnR1uVDfkdYhLN5GSyxReLj5v JOOVKTd239EC8TyMKW3tvAztTi9mPiysnec7M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=d/Vh8NYghSO8z9UMzcNarXU5VCrDBtdcwvTDqZyrSSmNac6o+DvXAghRkqWwETFJoI kBtgdRYR/bBp9K54DaXpuHRtB5jztaMMB7Vyp6dTwmNp1G4bmnp0QYp9hKOX+CBS9EXt nX5z/dOnY4x2Vv2BQb3BEyUk6WZILxacehbkE= Received: by 10.90.58.40 with SMTP id g40mr603731aga.53.1284680167963; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:36:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.27.13 with SMTP id a13ls1198766yba.6.p; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:35:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.147.12 with SMTP id z12mr981853ybn.8.1284680154695; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:35:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.147.12 with SMTP id z12mr981851ybn.8.1284680154661; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:35:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.119]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id l2si2929762ybn.15.2010.09.16.16.35.53; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.119 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.119; Received: (qmail 99523 invoked by uid 60001); 16 Sep 2010 23:35:53 -0000 Message-ID: <951099.98874.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 2PX5Z9wVM1nMSU0TUp_U1Avbq7VWTruzr3nbdvnmqnX1twL UApncWr.ZiJ3RFIK9i3NBwwGBpQmYR6q3p0QuurkF4.v3.gRaojbYBcDEcdh vMzn7VrftEgF1oWo6puxoxwJOXUt6XnCm8xaKw0TzPuxXoe5nHFYO.A57ws3 x.vgGviaYhkB3pKlBy84XTxV0tNskhufY2vVEDsVtOpqlkCBmE9ETY9KbUbA UUVoopgBq2R1FSuHWbv7YQJZmKjsJvVk_g7r6Z4IzcWgvSaAuIzFy6S2hFqF jAfeyZ00ghIZZiO.tBPr1azvpjlVL.EIpIp9pfFwKmQb_qxPXPjpj55xJpDM SzXjAGIOWUtI- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:35:52 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/470 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 References: <729457.38076.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4C8DF3A5.3040702@lojban.org> <364433.94354.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <575987.94184.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:35:52 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: other-centric UI To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.119 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is hardly a linguistic subtlety, being a fundamental difference in=20 linguistic behavior. On the other hand, it is hard to make reasonably compe= lling=20 examples of this sort of thing, so the thing to do is surround with a whirl= of=20 text to point out exactly what is going on. Of course, it also happens tha= t=20 someone comes on something in a very inchoate fashion and it takes several= =20 passes through the critical mill to work out what it was they found. And t= hat=20 may well be the case here, though the final grind has yet to be done. And = the=20 earlier cases are just ever narrowing stabs at what they have, not to be ta= ken=20 into account as a later stage is reached, I hope this is true, but, after = 35=20 years, I tend to view any mucking about in UI with the hermeneutics of=20 suspicion, and the total ineptness of even your attempt at number one leave= s=20 that suspicion only slightly allayed. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, September 16, 2010 5:36:14 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: other-centric UI On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 7:14 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > And for 1? These are not, after all, translations but rather part of an= =20 effort > to teach and justify a new usage. One expects such to be fdone with rele= vant > care. Not everyone is consciously aware of such linguistic subtleties, so the fault was not necessarily carelessness. > As you not, acceptable translations that make the point are easily come > by (I am a little uncertain about 'yay for Mom', which doesn't seems more= to > applaud than co-rejoice, but that is aesthetics). As I said, 1 does not= =20 >obvious > lends itself to even these explanations, Which is why one has to resort to a not-fully-adequate paraphrase. How would you translate "uu" in English? Given that, we can probably find some better way to translate "uu dai" and "uu da'oi ...". Maybe something like: la .selkik. .uu da'oi .lindar. cu co'e "Selkik ('poor thing!' would say Lindar) does something." but that's not very idiomatic and still doesn't get it quite right. Maybe English is just incapable of doing it so succintly as Lojban in this case. That's a translation problem, not a problem with the Lojban. > but does -- like the rest of them, fit > in with a propositional interpretation, which is also fairly regularly=20 >mentioned > subliminally (it is hard to talk overtly about some things in Lojspeak) i= n > earlier comments in this ane earlier related topic. If your point is that Lojbanists are not always accomplished linguists, I a= gree. If your point is that "da'oi" is somehow against the spirit of Lojban, I disagree. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.