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Sat, 02 Oct 2010 10:05:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastrmmtao101.cox.net (eastrmmtao101.cox.net [68.230.240.7]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id i3si1752321anc.6.2010.10.02.10.05.54; Sat, 02 Oct 2010 10:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.7 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) client-ip=68.230.240.7; Received: from eastrmimpo03.cox.net ([68.1.16.126]) by eastrmmtao101.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20101002170555.PEBT17186.eastrmmtao101.cox.net@eastrmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Sat, 2 Oct 2010 13:05:55 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.100] ([70.179.118.163]) by eastrmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id Dt5t1f00G3Xcbvq02t5uYq; Sat, 02 Oct 2010 13:05:54 -0400 X-VR-Score: -100.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=QrqtcKG8STZISEBTL61lfMPxybw3S6tAqos94q3Y+BI= c=1 sm=1 a=q_Yhov3COCAA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=7ls7RdmwX4RvLZNVULbZcg==:17 a=BCHXwXcdSHgeQvHDep8A:9 a=NQuzqKmT4r0RrAUjco8A:7 a=Low8fomL_ZaU1MnDupBPS1sraIIA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=HXv3EfQX1tWTH6c2:21 a=E8WT5aUIrSPggp_Q:21 a=7ls7RdmwX4RvLZNVULbZcg==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <4CA76670.50601@lojban.org> Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 13:05:52 -0400 From: Robert LeChevalier User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] la za'e filjvocedra (The Age of Easy Lujvo) References: <201010011823.25227.phma@phma.optus.nu> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.7 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) smtp.mail=lojbab@lojban.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: >=20 >>On Friday 01 October 2010 17:53:34 Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: >> >>>My preference is for being as systematic as possible, so: >>> >>>zmadu fi lo ka broda -> rodmau >>>mleca fi lo ka broda -> rodme'a >>>traji lo ka broda -> rodrai >>>mutce lo ka broda -> rodytce >>>milxe lo ka broda -> rodmli >>>cenba lo ka broda -> rodycne >>>zenba lo ka broda -> rodze'a >>>jdika lo ka broda -> rodjdika >>> >>>and probably some more I'm forgetting. >> >>I say "mutce broda", so "tcebroda". >=20 >=20 > I would say you are basically treating "mutce" as if it were in > selma'o NAhE instead of being a gismu with its own place structure. > Something like: >=20 > to'e broda -> tolbroda > na'e broda -> nalbroda > no'e broda -> norbroda > mutce broda -> tcebroda > milxe broda -> mlibroda >=20 >=20 >=20 >>>If you prefer "tcebroda" then presumably you should also prefer >>>"zmabroda" and "rairbroda", or if not why not? >> >>If "broda" is intransitive, it doesn't make much difference. However, if = it is >>transitive, it can make a difference. For instance, mi neizma la bil. lo >>frambesi (I like raspberries more than Bill does) .i mi zmanei lo frambes= i lo >>clazme (I like raspberries more than cucumbers). >=20 >=20 > Right, but why isn't there a difference in the case of "mutce"? Most > gismu are 'transitive', so if "xautce" means something like > "excellent" (mutce lo ka xamgu), would "tcexau" mean something like > "good for extremists" (xamgu lo mutce)? Or "good by extreme standards" > (xamgu fi lo mutce)? >=20 > If you say it simply means "mutce xamgu", which most often would be > understood in the sense of "mutce lo ka xamgu", then you are using a > different system for lujvo with "mutce" from the one you use for lujvo > with "zmadu" and "traji". I think that there is a difference between mutce/milxe and zmadu/mleca I can say that x is bigger than y, without necessarily wishing to claim=20 that x in big in an absolute sense. The essence of the claim is the=20 relative comparison. For mutce and milxe, the property being compared is the essential claim,=20 and the mutce and milxe are adjectivally modifying that property (which=20 is not normally the case with zmadu/mleca). traji seems like it could go either way, with the essence either being=20 the extremeness, the main property being modified by an adjectival=20 extremeness. I tend to use the former, because the latter seems to me=20 more of a "mutce traji" as the adjective modifying the basic property.=20 But I am willing to concede that this may be colored by my English-based=20 views of the words. Especially since traji can be used for both=20 extremes of a scale, it seems that any systematic usage should reflect=20 that option, and not assume that it means "most" lojbab --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.