From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDR4Z3lBBoEy0iN1A@googlegroups.com Sat Oct 02 10:50:23 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P26Dz-0003Lk-F1; Sat, 02 Oct 2010 10:50:22 -0700 Received: by wwe15 with SMTP id 15sf1029433wwe.16 for ; Sat, 02 Oct 2010 10:50:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=325+kAlLCmsS0p3k8s1M9PK4WPI0LkKOuor3cL+ES7Q=; b=N8KJc0/YcrBVS9rTBna36h4SvGeels9mZdwjRY6tltnRkNSZYaW7OMsvkpAMXLZmMH LUjwZ2i3ycCDAUnaOle0PA9Wc0it/Lz8NDePr7M4kbXgMPsG8AdKq53kwyJ/zF+apP5h +YmJCySDvg75W9hn/BJzR2iU3T4MbYv8ZZ6GA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=yLpB3ow7rXxzOSIIhYhMAKL048Q43P9E5HtlWAl4CLduZvprQYT2/U1e+h1rrwapiK 4DEfdN0uvcacoK7ypYSmPthR2BBn5g34sHEVqWH110hScjaxiuGDFgL39PALaSaKjkoG aUcheJrcvD1agj85UZmfUf2h9/Lmgldr4kdxc= Received: by 10.216.145.214 with SMTP id p64mr1393749wej.27.1286041809834; Sat, 02 Oct 2010 10:50:09 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.237.134 with SMTP id y6ls1638849weq.2.p; Sat, 02 Oct 2010 10:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.231.21 with SMTP id k21mr382607weq.2.1286041808327; Sat, 02 Oct 2010 10:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.231.21 with SMTP id k21mr382606weq.2.1286041808308; Sat, 02 Oct 2010 10:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f50.google.com (mail-ww0-f50.google.com [74.125.82.50]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id x37si810662weq.8.2010.10.02.10.50.07; Sat, 02 Oct 2010 10:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.50 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.50; Received: by wwb17 with SMTP id 17so4040791wwb.7 for ; Sat, 02 Oct 2010 10:50:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.156.199 with SMTP id y7mr6270223wbw.21.1286041807067; Sat, 02 Oct 2010 10:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.145.130 with HTTP; Sat, 2 Oct 2010 10:50:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4CA76670.50601@lojban.org> References: <201010011823.25227.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4CA76670.50601@lojban.org> Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 14:50:06 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] la za'e filjvocedra (The Age of Easy Lujvo) From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.50 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Robert LeChevalier wrot= e: > > I think that there is a difference between mutce/milxe and zmadu/mleca Of course there's a semantic difference, but are they structurally different enough that they will use different paradigms for making lujvo? > I can say that x is bigger than y, without necessarily wishing to claim t= hat > x in big in an absolute sense. =A0The essence of the claim is the relativ= e > comparison. You can only compare two things in the "ka broda" dimension if the two things (or at the very least one of them) has some measure in that dimension. If neither of the two has any "ka broda", then it doesn't make sense to say that one of them has more of it than the other. Now, Lojban doesn't really have a very proper word for "size", but when we use "lo ka barda" for it we are assuming that the two things compared have at least a minimum amount of it. No matter how small they are, they still must have some "ka barda" in order to say that one has more of it than the other. > For mutce and milxe, the property being compared is the essential claim, = and > the mutce and milxe are adjectivally modifying that property (which is no= t > normally the case with zmadu/mleca). "Adjectivally modifying" does not apply to Lojban. If you are saying that when you say "mutce barda" you are thinking of something other that "mutce lo ka barda", then please explain in Lojban what it is that you are thinking of, because I don't really understand the distinction you want to make. > traji seems like it could go either way, with the essence either being th= e > extremeness, the main property being modified by an adjectival extremenes= s. > =A0I tend to use the former, because the latter seems to me more of a "mu= tce > traji" as the adjective modifying the basic property. But I am willing to > concede that this may be colored by my English-based views of the words. It seems as if you were saying that in "ko'a mutce lo ka broda" you were somehow assigning brodaness to ko'a less essentially than in "ko'a ckaji lo ka broda" or in "ko'a broda". Is that what you are saying? > =A0Especially since traji can be used for both extremes of a scale, it se= ems > that any systematic usage should reflect that option, and not assume that= it > means "most" Those who accept that strange definition of "traji" will be in trouble whenever they want to use "traji", but so far I don't remember anyone actually paying any attention to the x3 slot. Everyone seems to use it with the sensible meaning of "x1 has more of property x2 than anyone else among x4". But this issue doesn't really affect the question of whether it's used as a prefix or as a suffix. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.