From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCT-rjlBBoEp1F91Q@googlegroups.com Thu Oct 07 14:35:33 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P3y7c-0004w6-Oi; Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:35:32 -0700 Received: by gwb11 with SMTP id 11sf223366gwb.16 for ; Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:35:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=KEil6OVmh4QyyXRKbTP+af0BCIw1myiV5FTmbQusB3o=; b=L+CA5Y7RkQ0Ev4b58a7Xvc7mjGCc5FO/MqIMo2VNw321lu3+hpAhm+c6CVNd6MrrRE /BBKKPX8zIcSgnRO/Wzmtj3aZZYH4G09HyAfZxqHXjMSQcrTuhNQfGVnue78xDZVQq/u X/NFU9080OxrbzewUs5OaiMnYwNDQmWJyFPFQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=WO+z0qAHxvK9hN98E17a5f1kSk2X/DopJH9J8pLV4I8a77WC36N8JBZHWyF63vjRso cisaSQifCYZiXHhBQVOn79k19WJRQj8usmyUv00hmVp1yGlq+AVOarJkSraTjJjkNPPi Qn3D61Z3gisreKDfjRAcqJElfrUHr7BnLnahE= Received: by 10.151.17.2 with SMTP id u2mr156396ybi.52.1286487315914; Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:35:15 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.53.21 with SMTP id b21ls666575yba.4.p; Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:35:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.111.14 with SMTP id v14mr323497yhg.21.1286487315435; Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:35:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.111.14 with SMTP id v14mr323496yhg.21.1286487315397; Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:35:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.123]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 47si986408yhl.7.2010.10.07.14.35.14; Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:35:14 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.123 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.123; Received: (qmail 23691 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Oct 2010 21:35:13 -0000 Message-ID: <298035.17735.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: Pu0Uu9wVM1kMPuABX5L9tOBQa0YuWC9z5Y.rCIXI9JbO64M JuG_Xej8FdvWKO6Z9Qfp4kFkWHcWIZAU4NzqgAEvYMU0yQ0FkpSnAthcOfuc dSbR.vddBKNMLzp4IZjXTZ1_slFn74aYbRQJJB3RuAj.l8tLHeenmB_TkWtp Cub32ifmNWmLCeUeYF9EPNrJ_G4b7pv6Q7IV6Oq_GZN7w5kyuSS4CMsRV7HA 47BFkmBVp77adyOkSv4DQr9ZcJliqxlUg_csruGX1XLpa7iw.K7GytV.vcbO 0kp8_vUnRGHHai9qNay.BPVbwVunyHSuT.57LZ9cs_0Dq.IfADrXw3L2Y8SY LmEDjiLKHab_o5bqIL_GKtEktXzjbWxKnz.PcaHc- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:35:13 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/504.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 References: <20101007173227.GB27477@alice.local> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 14:35:13 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] la lojbo kurji To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.123 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1019728338-1286487313=:17735" --0-1019728338-1286487313=:17735 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 'ro' is a bad case to pick, because so many cases fall together, so let's w= ork=20 with 're'. 're gerku cu broda' says that exactly two of all the dogs in th= e=20 operant universe broda. 'lo gerku cu broda' says that dogs (some overtly= =20 unspecified but possibly picked out in context -- I want to say "bunch of = dogs"=20 but that, justifiably, gives xorxes the fantods) broda. 're lo gerku cu b= roda'=20 says that exactly two out of some (bunch of) dogs broda. 'lo re gerku cu br= oda'=20 says that (a pack of) two dogs broda, with no commitment about any other do= gs in=20 the world. Indeed, all the 'lo' expressions say nothing about other dogs, = just=20 this (some) bunch. Well, 'lo ro broda' does talk about all the dogs in the= =20 operant universe, but that is why it is a bad case. ________________________________ From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, October 7, 2010 3:05:02 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] la lojbo kurji On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: oo oo, me first. > > >re lo ci gerku is 2 of the 3 dogs. the {re} is saying how many things and= the=20 >{ci} is saying what the scope is for the things that we are talking about.= =20 > amirite? > As far as I understand quantified gadri, yes. =20 On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > > >> >> >>2010/10/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas >> >>On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >>>> 2010/10/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Jonathan Jones wr= ote: >>>>> > 2010/10/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas >>>>> >> On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 2:32 PM, .alyn.post. >>>>> >> wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> > .i mi ba tavla fo la lobjan. de'i lo ro djedi >>>>> >> >>>>> >> "lo ro djedi" is not a date, you want "ca" not "de'i". >>>>> >> >>>>> >> And "ca ro (lo) djedi", unless you are content to do it at some si= ngle >>>>> >> point in time valid for all days. >>>>> > >>>>> > "A side effect of the above is that in xorlo, if you mean "one bear= ", >>>>> > consider actually saying "pa cribe". It's ever so much more specifi= c. >>>>> > xorxes >>>>> > points out that to refer to one bear, "lo pa cribe" is actually a b= it >>>>> > better; "pa cribe cu broda" means that exactly one cribe in the who= le >>>>> > world >>>>> > brodas, which is often not what you want. We (those of us that have >>>>> > actually >>>>> > been using xorlo for the last few months; there are at least half a >>>>> > dozen >>>>> > active users on #lojban now) have found that context is almost alwa= ys >>>>> > sufficient, however." >>>>> >>>>> Is that supposed to be related to what I was saying? I'm not sure if >>>>> you are quoting that as support or as disagreement. >>>>> >>>>> mu'o mi'e xorxes >>>> >>>> I was pointing out that you seemed to be disagreeing with yourself. >>> >>>No, I don't think so. >>> >>>Your quote was not from me anyway, and I'm not sure I follow it all, >>>but what I was saying is that if he wants to commit to doing something >>>every day he should say "ca ro (lo) djedi", not "ca lo ro djedi", >>>which is hardly a very strong commitment. >>> >>> >>>mu'o mi'e xorxes >>Okay, maybe you should explain to me, in your own words, the difference b= etween=20 >>{ro broda}, {ro lo broda}, and {lo ro broda}, becuase it seems to me I'm= =20 >>misunderstanding. >> >> >>--=20 >>mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >>.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu= do=20 >>zo'o >>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> --=20 >> >>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 >>"lojban" group. >>To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 >>lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>For more options, visit this group at=20 >>http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > --=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 >"lojban" group. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 >lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >For more options, visit this group at=20 >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu d= o=20 zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0-1019728338-1286487313=:17735 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
'ro' is a bad case to pick, because so many cases = fall together, so let's work with 're'.  're gerku cu broda' says that= exactly two of all the dogs in the operant universe broda.  'lo gerku= cu broda' says that dogs (some overtly unspecified but possibly picked out= in context  -- I want to say "bunch of dogs" but that, justifiably, &= nbsp;gives xorxes the fantods) broda.  're lo gerku cu broda' says tha= t exactly two out of some (bunch of) dogs broda. 'lo re gerku cu broda' say= s that (a pack of) two dogs broda, with no commitment about any other dogs = in the world.  Indeed, all the 'lo' expressions say nothing about othe= r dogs, just this (some) bunch.  Well, 'lo ro broda' does talk about a= ll the dogs in the operant universe, but that is why it is a bad case.


From: Jonathan Jones &l= t;eyeonus@gmail.com>
To:= lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent:= Thu, October 7, 2010 3:05:02 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] la lojbo kurji

On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gma= il.com> wrote:
oo oo, me first.

re lo ci gerku is 2 of the 3 dogs. &nbs= p;the {re} is saying how many things and the {ci} is saying what the scope = is for the things that we are talking about.  amirite?

As far as I understand quantified gadri, yes.
 
On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:


2010/10/7 Jorge Lla= mb=EDas <jjlla= mbias@gmail.com>
On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2010/10/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > 2010/10/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
>> >> On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 2:32 PM, .alyn.post.
>> >> <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >  .i mi ba tavla fo la lobjan. de'i lo ro djedi<= br> >> >>
>> >> "lo ro djedi" is not a date, you want "ca" not "de'i". >> >>
>> >> And "ca ro (lo) djedi", unless you are content to do it a= t some single
>> >> point in time valid for all days.
>> >
>> > "A side effect of the above is that in xorlo, if you mean "on= e bear",
>> > consider actually saying "pa cribe". It's ever so much more s= pecific.
>> > xorxes
>> > points out that to refer to one bear, "lo pa cribe" is actual= ly a bit
>> > better; "pa cribe cu broda" means that exactly one cribe in t= he whole
>> > world
>> > brodas, which is often not what you want. We (those of us tha= t have
>> > actually
>> > been using xorlo for the last few months; there are at least = half a
>> > dozen
>> > active users on #lojban now) have found that context is almos= t always
>> > sufficient, however."
>>
>> Is that supposed to be related to what I was saying? I'm not sure = if
>> you are quoting that as support or as disagreement.
>>
>> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
> I was pointing out that you seemed to be disagreeing with yourself.
No, I don't think so.

Your quote was not from me anyway, and I'm not sure I follow it all,
but what I was saying is that if he wants to commit to doing something
every day he should say "ca ro (lo) djedi", not "ca lo ro djedi",
which is hardly a very strong commitment.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

Okay, maybe you sh= ould explain to me, in your own words, the difference between {ro broda}, {= ro lo broda}, and {lo ro broda}, becuase it seems to me I'm misunderstandin= g.


--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pil= no be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke,= I am your father. :D )

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To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegro= ups.com.
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--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi = luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D = )

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To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.

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