From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhDi_LjlBBoEDtf-4A@googlegroups.com Thu Oct 07 14:41:08 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P3yD0-0005Dv-Gr; Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:41:08 -0700 Received: by yxk30 with SMTP id 30sf226027yxk.16 for ; Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:40:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=0X3AxwSWbSr7b4lCQ4UtD2tsey/9KaZhgeFbPscunug=; b=eNY0kG2es3dg5NcMM8Zf8QBcr5bijHkftWgr3G8uSgp2fzbJaByxo6qAuORelEL5zf UauEQhF9Sdq0rsxlDzHlVV5yWmuzadI4HcfXi/Nmtaavf3URKvddP/qXZO9i6CHtoEiy eBV5GHb3lNTUneiLXUDQaElmK6b6u7weYJGrs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=e0QxN5Gwi6VsfQjzQ81yPDq69Htp/49fzOEpoTeJUl3BHvUX2WM3C9yeig2PNFLJu/ G+1uSVsbNxWaotLpUfUzE7a0DJ4heZpV2VK4D2UNLqn6xSCxBx016C1IKqE9u3gqZsXD Ab2gkazvQAG5V045wlijK0bvMwR2Usd46JiLE= Received: by 10.90.57.13 with SMTP id f13mr165004aga.39.1286487650191; Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:40:50 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.55.74 with SMTP id t10ls271386ibg.3.p; Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.161.78 with SMTP id q14mr379510ibx.10.1286487649580; Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.161.78 with SMTP id q14mr379509ibx.10.1286487649531; Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f169.google.com (mail-iw0-f169.google.com [209.85.214.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id bm7si1518741ibb.6.2010.10.07.14.40.48; Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.169; Received: by iwn2 with SMTP id 2so515354iwn.0 for ; Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:40:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.191.138 with SMTP id dm10mr1517827ibb.126.1286487648347; Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.206.16 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Oct 2010 14:40:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <298035.17735.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20101007173227.GB27477@alice.local> <298035.17735.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 15:40:48 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] la lojbo kurji From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e64f90b049a63204920dbf1f --0016e64f90b049a63204920dbf1f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wasn't having trouble with quantifiers in general, just with {ro}. That i= s why I quoted that paragraph from the "How to use xorlo" page. On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 3:35 PM, John E Clifford wrote= : > 'ro' is a bad case to pick, because so many cases fall together, so let's > work with 're'. 're gerku cu broda' says that exactly two of all the dog= s > in the operant universe broda. 'lo gerku cu broda' says that dogs (some > overtly unspecified but possibly picked out in context -- I want to say > "bunch of dogs" but that, justifiably, gives xorxes the fantods) broda. > 're lo gerku cu broda' says that exactly two out of some (bunch of) dogs > broda. 'lo re gerku cu broda' says that (a pack of) two dogs broda, with = no > commitment about any other dogs in the world. Indeed, all the 'lo' > expressions say nothing about other dogs, just this (some) bunch. Well, = 'lo > ro broda' does talk about all the dogs in the operant universe, but that = is > why it is a bad case. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Jonathan Jones > *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Thu, October 7, 2010 3:05:02 PM > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] la lojbo kurji > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Luke Bergen wrote= : > >> oo oo, me first. >> >> re lo ci gerku is 2 of the 3 dogs. the {re} is saying how many things a= nd >> the {ci} is saying what the scope is for the things that we are talking >> about. amirite? >> > > As far as I understand quantified gadri, yes. > > >> On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote= : >> >>> >>> >>> 2010/10/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas >>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Jonathan Jones >>>> wrote: >>>> > 2010/10/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas >>>> >> >>>> >> On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Jonathan Jones >>>> wrote: >>>> >> > 2010/10/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas >>>> >> >> On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 2:32 PM, .alyn.post. >>>> >> >> wrote: >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> > .i mi ba tavla fo la lobjan. de'i lo ro djedi >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> "lo ro djedi" is not a date, you want "ca" not "de'i". >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> And "ca ro (lo) djedi", unless you are content to do it at some >>>> single >>>> >> >> point in time valid for all days. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > "A side effect of the above is that in xorlo, if you mean "one >>>> bear", >>>> >> > consider actually saying "pa cribe". It's ever so much more >>>> specific. >>>> >> > xorxes >>>> >> > points out that to refer to one bear, "lo pa cribe" is actually a >>>> bit >>>> >> > better; "pa cribe cu broda" means that exactly one cribe in the >>>> whole >>>> >> > world >>>> >> > brodas, which is often not what you want. We (those of us that ha= ve >>>> >> > actually >>>> >> > been using xorlo for the last few months; there are at least half= a >>>> >> > dozen >>>> >> > active users on #lojban now) have found that context is almost >>>> always >>>> >> > sufficient, however." >>>> >> >>>> >> Is that supposed to be related to what I was saying? I'm not sure i= f >>>> >> you are quoting that as support or as disagreement. >>>> >> >>>> >> mu'o mi'e xorxes >>>> > >>>> > I was pointing out that you seemed to be disagreeing with yourself. >>>> >>>> No, I don't think so. >>>> >>>> Your quote was not from me anyway, and I'm not sure I follow it all, >>>> but what I was saying is that if he wants to commit to doing something >>>> every day he should say "ca ro (lo) djedi", not "ca lo ro djedi", >>>> which is hardly a very strong commitment. >>>> >>>> mu'o mi'e xorxes >>>> >>> >>> Okay, maybe you should explain to me, in your own words, the difference >>> between {ro broda}, {ro lo broda}, and {lo ro broda}, becuase it seems = to me >>> I'm misunderstanding. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi pat= fu >>> do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu > do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu d= o zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016e64f90b049a63204920dbf1f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wasn't having trouble with quantifiers in general, just with {ro}. Th= at is why I quoted that paragraph from the "How to use xorlo" pag= e.

On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 3:35 PM, John E= Clifford <kal= i9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
'ro' is a bad case to pick, because so many cases fall togethe= r, so let's work with 're'. =A0're gerku cu broda' says= that exactly two of all the dogs in the operant universe broda. =A0'lo= gerku cu broda' says that dogs (some overtly unspecified but possibly = picked out in context =A0-- I want to say "bunch of dogs" but tha= t, justifiably, =A0gives xorxes the fantods) broda. =A0're lo gerku cu = broda' says that exactly two out of some (bunch of) dogs broda. 'lo= re gerku cu broda' says that (a pack of) two dogs broda, with no commi= tment about any other dogs in the world. =A0Indeed, all the 'lo' ex= pressions say nothing about other dogs, just this (some) bunch. =A0Well, &#= 39;lo ro broda' does talk about all the dogs in the operant universe, b= ut that is why it is a bad case.

From: Jonathan Jones <<= a href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">eyeonus@gmail.com= >
To: lojban@googlegroups.com<= br> Sent: Thu, October 7, 2010= 3:05:02 PM
Subject: Re= : [lojban] la lojbo kurji

On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
oo oo, me first.

re lo ci gerku is 2 of the 3 dogs. =A0t= he {re} is saying how many things and the {ci} is saying what the scope is = for the things that we are talking about. =A0amirite?

As far as I understand quantified gadri, yes.
=A0
On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@g= mail.com> wrote:


2010/10/7 Jorge Lla= mb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonu= s@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2010/10/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
>> > 2010/10/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com> >> >> On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 2:32 PM, .alyn.post.
>> >> <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrot= e:
>> >>
>> >> > =A0.i mi ba tavla fo la lobjan. de'i lo ro djedi=
>> >>
>> >> "lo ro djedi" is not a date, you want "ca&= quot; not "de'i".
>> >>
>> >> And "ca ro (lo) djedi", unless you are content = to do it at some single
>> >> point in time valid for all days.
>> >
>> > "A side effect of the above is that in xorlo, if you mea= n "one bear",
>> > consider actually saying "pa cribe". It's ever = so much more specific.
>> > xorxes
>> > points out that to refer to one bear, "lo pa cribe"= is actually a bit
>> > better; "pa cribe cu broda" means that exactly one = cribe in the whole
>> > world
>> > brodas, which is often not what you want. We (those of us tha= t have
>> > actually
>> > been using xorlo for the last few months; there are at least = half a
>> > dozen
>> > active users on #lojban now) have found that context is almos= t always
>> > sufficient, however."
>>
>> Is that supposed to be related to what I was saying? I'm not s= ure if
>> you are quoting that as support or as disagreement.
>>
>> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
> I was pointing out that you seemed to be disagreeing with yourself.
No, I don't think so.

Your quote was not from me anyway, and I'm not sure I follow it all, but what I was saying is that if he wants to commit to doing something
every day he should say "ca ro (lo) djedi", not "ca lo ro dj= edi",
which is hardly a very strong commitment.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

Okay, mayb= e you should explain to me, in your own words, the difference between {ro b= roda}, {ro lo broda}, and {lo ro broda}, becuase it seems to me I'm mis= understanding.


--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le= bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to= the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.

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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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