From lojban+bncCM6-0ebTBhDlr8DlBBoE9PlBBg@googlegroups.com Sat Oct 09 00:21:24 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P4Tk9-0001Em-Nx; Sat, 09 Oct 2010 00:21:24 -0700 Received: by gya1 with SMTP id 1sf1763234gya.16 for ; Sat, 09 Oct 2010 00:21:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:received:x-authenticated :x-provags-id:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references :x-mailer:mime-version:x-y-gmx-trusted:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UVAV1brDG4XAlXgZ02dtW82IpUemdwN6Z19TqPPEtXE=; b=ozUeezAjdU8JqBNdF6Wt5U4VuWmbfW6bkEm8/vYDM6rMiH9KKVZ6ewnAL+nGK1TqjB cs4/Psjskyq/r8VRV6uKMwkEoc3PfxYe7Lw0d+cCHYW/4gNR+4IDcEhPpQeNXhzqOz36 z45gLL1T8XWfllyXAVGDx9hCTWluGVVwzPBis= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-authenticated:x-provags-id:date:from:to :subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:mime-version :x-y-gmx-trusted:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=1ZKXHgUxWR8bsGug4qIXS/gqhEd/Ybkp3WFNTyprkHpMTcbOW2uq2zfEww76djM1M/ cLTWe9YkS9TsuKZEImOxqAl4MR2+SXMSafWA/ZxwEzTk4GuKLHxOj/LyQ1gW9EDmzoqd 7OToMhZH/fBnm8HYGCLd8GrjsXpcCwb8vArwc= Received: by 10.236.108.44 with SMTP id p32mr82014yhg.20.1286608869818; Sat, 09 Oct 2010 00:21:09 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.69.3 with SMTP id r3ls550852yba.3.p; Sat, 09 Oct 2010 00:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.186.13 with SMTP id j13mr347768ybf.58.1286608869202; Sat, 09 Oct 2010 00:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.82.140 with SMTP id b12mr85741bkl.17.1286608763640; Sat, 09 Oct 2010 00:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.82.140 with SMTP id b12mr85740bkl.17.1286608763617; Sat, 09 Oct 2010 00:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.gmx.net (mailout-de.gmx.net [213.165.64.22]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id z17si2340094bkb.3.2010.10.09.00.19.23; Sat, 09 Oct 2010 00:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kfa@gmx.net designates 213.165.64.22 as permitted sender) client-ip=213.165.64.22; Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 09 Oct 2010 07:19:23 -0000 Received: from e179062233.adsl.alicedsl.de (EHLO User-PC) [85.179.62.233] by mail.gmx.net (mp054) with SMTP; 09 Oct 2010 09:19:23 +0200 X-Authenticated: #370125 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/SLzAk1hXSJx8NnEpivk5onhgaerBQps2WcJDeVX tQFSoGW2gBaxEy Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 09:19:16 +0200 From: kfa@gmx.net To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: You're Doing it Wrong Message-Id: <20101009091916.3b47f8ae.kfa@gmx.net> In-Reply-To: <203bf727-e7de-4873-a692-609379cbd0dd@n26g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> References: <20101008173130.GA29534@alice.local> <927845.87204.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <203bf727-e7de-4873-a692-609379cbd0dd@n26g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.0.3 (GTK+ 2.10.14; i686-pc-mingw32) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-Original-Sender: kfa@gmx.net X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kfa@gmx.net designates 213.165.64.22 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kfa@gmx.net Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 8 Oct 2010 11:38:17 -0700 (PDT) Lindar wrote: >=20 > Also... I didn't know there were people that wanted specifically to > learn from a book. I guess that explains Esperanto (apparently their > entire community is made up of people that learn that way exclusively > and they have no grass-roots teaching programmes like we do). >=20 I have to latch on this for a minute, because I come from Esperantoland. It= 's not that the entire community learns it the same way. It's just that it'= s over 120 years old now and that goes some way towards establishment. I am= rather a self-paced book/online learner myself, but I got my toes wet by j= oining a course in Second Life. Then there's lernu.net and edukado.net. And= there are brick-and-mortar courses, in some countries more than in others = (in Hungary it's offered in almost every university, in Germany in some). S= o, there are offers to suit everyone, the lone geek and the take-my-hand ty= pe and anyone in between. Secondly, the comparison of Lojban with Esperanto regarding their history o= f promotion doesn't work too well, because their environments were/are so d= ifferent. Esperanto was born from the pains of a man living in a multicultu= ral city full of harsh hostility, not as an academic experiment. Basically,= E-o was created in and for Europe, a Babylon of 40+ countries speaking 50+= languages. It survived deadly blows in the upheavals of the 20th century, = because it works against nationalism and Zamenhof was a jew (mercifully he = passed on before the time that fact became so dangerous). Although it still= hasn't reached mainstream after all, it's actually permanently on the brin= k of doing so. I have a brochure from 1926 promoting its use for commercial= purposes. Today there is even a political party working towards getting it= officially accepted by the EU at last. Long way still to reaching that goa= l, but digging and worming. Lojban, created in modern USA, doesn't really fill such a dire need. That d= oesn't make it less valuable, but one must admit that it's very much a thin= g for academics and headgame enthusiasts. Or can you sell it to a blue-coll= ar worker as a cure for his woes with getting English spelling right? Provi= ng the original mission statement of Lojban, resp. Loglan, suggests educati= ng some children completely immersed in it, and then studying how they inte= ract. Let's say, time is simply not there yet... Amike / mi'e la feliks. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.