From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCG8KLlBBoEV4JrcA@googlegroups.com Sun Oct 03 10:06:31 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P2S15-0007Sn-Uy; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 10:06:31 -0700 Received: by wyb40 with SMTP id 40sf1170069wyb.16 for ; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 10:06:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=2D+pCGlcJU9lVc7a9uBBA/cm2uC7qybQmV/vg2ZnKek=; b=zDLUEqwTJL16sb6ztIUc5TscGfzeO/OOzI1pPYhdPHIguV6Fwy166nZMpsQhD+14vZ K8p4t8O5msDh3sUb2lqyIL2YOStYvFRRJP9ew2hX8UkNOTq2SF/dSui5NQD6Rw4Wq/DW 7TTF4M7x5TJ0eeD9phVQC4H5H5b5NxbZzttPY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=lVOJm9auNKX/GjRH6rkimICc2LZvzx/5HbDa+jrZ25NQTufIaVLL/OPpl6uVjJ8DkZ Ba9yMv5vBuylHTZzJC7ChHom+NNzQcNkguQCGYjsDjSyJi/6u4mE1NXZA6cfcd+/NAe8 dC/NQXRxsBmKtVPFXXVT7d7bXQ91vJxZxhExA= Received: by 10.216.145.97 with SMTP id o75mr1485125wej.16.1286125574889; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 10:06:14 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.39.10 with SMTP id d10ls1476576wbe.2.p; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 10:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.128.76 with SMTP id j12mr316082wbs.19.1286125573626; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 10:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.128.76 with SMTP id j12mr316081wbs.19.1286125573600; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 10:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f171.google.com (mail-wy0-f171.google.com [74.125.82.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id q13si1748734wbs.0.2010.10.03.10.06.12; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 10:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.171; Received: by wyf19 with SMTP id 19so4658802wyf.30 for ; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 10:06:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.142.208 with SMTP id r16mr6876908wbu.140.1286125572402; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 10:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.145.130 with HTTP; Sun, 3 Oct 2010 10:06:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 14:06:12 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] A pro-sumti for PU? From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 12:53 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: > Can you explain the use of {ku} to do something other than terminating LE? I > haven't seen this before, outside of this case with PU, which I had thought > was somehow anomalous (which was one of the reasons I came up with this > idea). This is where CLL explains it: http://jbotcan.org/docs/cll/c9/s9.html (Something weird happened to the html at the end of that page. I don't know if anyone is maintaining it.) "ca ku" and "ba ku" are probably the two most commonly used. I have used "va'o nai ku" for "otherwise", i.e. something like "not under (contextual conditions)". "pu zu vu ku" has also been used as the start of fairy tales, as in "once upon the time" or "long ago and far away". There are probably other common uses of "tag KU" that I'm forgetting now. > Some example sentences: > ca ja'u mi klama lo zarci > "I am going to a store at this moment" > is the obvious example, which can apparently be done equivalently with > {nau}: > nau ku mi klama lo zarci Right. > The other example that {nau} can't do is using {ja'u} as an argument, which > I can't immediately think of a good example for, but: > lo broda ku brode ja'u > would be grammatical. This is more exact as a usage than {lo cabna be dei}, > in that it doesn't point to one or more things simultaneous with the > utterance, but rather to the time that the utterance is made itself. You can also use "lo tcika be dei" or "lo detri be dei" for a different type of precision. > It might be more useful, now that I think about it, to have a conversion > from tenses to time sumti, so that one could point at the present moment via > a conversion from {nau}, as well as assign other times via conversion of the > other things in PU. We have FIhO to convert a selbri into a tag. Since every tag (tenses are one case of tags) can be thought of as "FIhO broda" for some appropriate broda, all you need to do is figure out which broda corresponds to the tag you want to convert, and then use "lo broda" as the sumti. > I haven't thought very hard about the grammar here (I > don't even know if there's a selma'o for this) but (using {ja'u} since it is > actually fairly hard to find a free CV'V): > .i ja'u pu zo'e [ku?] goi ko'a mi klama lo zarci .i ba ko'a mi klama lo > zdani > "At an earlier time (ko'a) I went to a store). After that, I {tense relative > to the present not specified} go to a house." You could say: pu ku ca zo'e goi ko'a mi klama lo zarci .i ba ko'a mi klama lo zdani Personally, I think Lojban already has way more cmavo than it should, so I'm generally not in favor of adding new cmavo just because one can think of possible uses for them. I think it might not have been a bad idea for "nau" to be in selma'o KOhA rather than being a tag, but I don't think adding things to KOhA now is such a good idea, when I would like to remove about half the things that are there already. mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.