From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBD99KLlBBoEwZFfOQ@googlegroups.com Sun Oct 03 10:17:01 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P2SBF-0007ke-Ea; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 10:17:00 -0700 Received: by gya1 with SMTP id 1sf3990173gya.16 for ; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 10:16:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=GnQWzzuEAW9WWjP0fo50ADD9xsYjW9A1RQFpjEiFS+0=; b=FLi7TDqk/5QlDcOrPYfeIsr5Tb+fSg16bwIRefS7MIzB9bA0EydaMd5obwBdbl/RPe sWrvnwEA+hgUQCB5Xrc2/r3XdbeF7Dm4qVguwaXTzik3o2XNQDKtzUyJGlRebufntbbg hBEpP/H/Mb+y9ilwA+rLbTcJ+dqoyRZ4Ysm8o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=0fmE++VN/u6nJivCfErE3pLK/MpQxg80JidwuPEzNHhw1/4LDtmnXs7NHZYlT6H5Jq ZV+c+NVDug+7wP7bT9yyO1HGOzsge4e+9D8tyXSvBEZe7iZJ1MsoNXucg87Ecrqynw7B 82rQvOLo3mkBqxma76slkhGxDQi6l6Pb7xFXA= Received: by 10.91.9.1 with SMTP id m1mr568210agi.51.1286126205295; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 10:16:45 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.123.203 with SMTP id q11ls2301697ibr.2.p; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 10:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.3.13 with SMTP id 13mr1634145icm.6.1286126204406; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 10:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.3.13 with SMTP id 13mr1634144icm.6.1286126204380; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 10:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f170.google.com (mail-iw0-f170.google.com [209.85.214.170]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id e25si2382084ibk.3.2010.10.03.10.16.43; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 10:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.170; Received: by mail-iw0-f170.google.com with SMTP id 37so12546110iwn.1 for ; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 10:16:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.33.205 with SMTP id i13mr8811202ibd.59.1286126202348; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 10:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.48.79 with HTTP; Sun, 3 Oct 2010 10:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.48.79 with HTTP; Sun, 3 Oct 2010 10:16:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 13:16:42 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] A pro-sumti for PU? From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00221534c94f6d68860491b99769 --00221534c94f6d68860491b99769 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ta'o .u'u Sorry to hijack the conversation for a brief moment but that va'onai thing looks interesting/useful but how does it work? Would "mi xagji va'onai lo nu mi citka" be how one could say "I am hungry unless I eat"? Because I've been wondering how to say things of that form recently. ta'onai So can ku terminate bai as well? E.g. "mu'iku mi klama". Not sure exactly that would be... with some motive, I go? On Oct 3, 2010 1:06 PM, "Jorge Llamb=EDas" wrote: > On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 12:53 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: >> Can you explain the use of {ku} to do something other than terminating LE? I >> haven't seen this before, outside of this case with PU, which I had thought >> was somehow anomalous (which was one of the reasons I came up with this >> idea). > > This is where CLL explains it: http://jbotcan.org/docs/cll/c9/s9.html > > (Something weird happened to the html at the end of that page. I don't > know if anyone is maintaining it.) > > "ca ku" and "ba ku" are probably the two most commonly used. > > I have used "va'o nai ku" for "otherwise", i.e. something like "not > under (contextual conditions)". > > "pu zu vu ku" has also been used as the start of fairy tales, as in > "once upon the time" or "long ago and far away". > > There are probably other common uses of "tag KU" that I'm forgetting now. > >> Some example sentences: >> ca ja'u mi klama lo zarci >> "I am going to a store at this moment" >> is the obvious example, which can apparently be done equivalently with >> {nau}: >> nau ku mi klama lo zarci > > Right. > >> The other example that {nau} can't do is using {ja'u} as an argument, which >> I can't immediately think of a good example for, but: >> lo broda ku brode ja'u >> would be grammatical. This is more exact as a usage than {lo cabna be dei}, >> in that it doesn't point to one or more things simultaneous with the >> utterance, but rather to the time that the utterance is made itself. > > You can also use "lo tcika be dei" or "lo detri be dei" for a > different type of precision. > >> It might be more useful, now that I think about it, to have a conversion >> from tenses to time sumti, so that one could point at the present moment via >> a conversion from {nau}, as well as assign other times via conversion of the >> other things in PU. > > We have FIhO to convert a selbri into a tag. Since every tag (tenses > are one case of tags) can be thought of as "FIhO broda" for some > appropriate broda, all you need to do is figure out which broda > corresponds to the tag you want to convert, and then use "lo broda" as > the sumti. > >> I haven't thought very hard about the grammar here (I >> don't even know if there's a selma'o for this) but (using {ja'u} since i= t is >> actually fairly hard to find a free CV'V): >> .i ja'u pu zo'e [ku?] goi ko'a mi klama lo zarci .i ba ko'a mi klama lo >> zdani >> "At an earlier time (ko'a) I went to a store). After that, I {tense relative >> to the present not specified} go to a house." > > You could say: > > pu ku ca zo'e goi ko'a mi klama lo zarci .i ba ko'a mi klama lo zdani > > Personally, I think Lojban already has way more cmavo than it should, > so I'm generally not in favor of adding new cmavo just because one can > think of possible uses for them. > > I think it might not have been a bad idea for "nau" to be in selma'o > KOhA rather than being a tag, but I don't think adding things to KOhA > now is such a good idea, when I would like to remove about half the > things that are there already. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com = . > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --00221534c94f6d68860491b99769 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

ta'o .u'u
Sorry to hijack the conversation for a brief moment but that va'onai th= ing looks interesting/useful but how does it work?=A0 Would "mi xagji = va'onai lo nu mi citka" be how one could say "I am hungry unl= ess I eat"?=A0 Because I've been wondering how to say things of th= at form recently.
ta'onai

So can ku terminate bai as well?=A0 E.g. "mu'iku mi klama"= .=A0 Not sure exactly that would be... with some motive, I go?

On Oct 3, 2010 1:06 PM, "Jorge Llamb=EDas&q= uot; <jjllambias@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 12:53 PM, Ian= Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.c= om> wrote:
>> Can you explain the use of {ku} to do something other than termina= ting LE? I
>> haven't seen this before, outside of this case w= ith PU, which I had thought
>> was somehow anomalous (which was on= e of the reasons I came up with this
>> idea).
>
> This is where CLL explains it: http://jbotcan.org/docs/cll/c9/s9.h= tml
>
> (Something weird happened to the html at the end o= f that page. I don't
> know if anyone is maintaining it.)
>
> "ca ku" = and "ba ku" are probably the two most commonly used.
>
= > I have used "va'o nai ku" for "otherwise", i.e= . something like "not
> under (contextual conditions)".
>
> "pu zu vu k= u" has also been used as the start of fairy tales, as in
> "= ;once upon the time" or "long ago and far away".
> > There are probably other common uses of "tag KU" that I'= m forgetting now.
>
>> Some example sentences:
>> = ca ja'u mi klama lo zarci
>> "I am going to a store at th= is moment"
>> is the obvious example, which can apparently be done equivalently = with
>> {nau}:
>> nau ku mi klama lo zarci
>
&g= t; Right.
>
>> The other example that {nau} can't do is= using {ja'u} as an argument, which
>> I can't immediately think of a good example for, but:
>&= gt; lo broda ku brode ja'u
>> would be grammatical. This is mo= re exact as a usage than {lo cabna be dei},
>> in that it doesn= 9;t point to one or more things simultaneous with the
>> utterance, but rather to the time that the utterance is made itsel= f.
>
> You can also use "lo tcika be dei" or "l= o detri be dei" for a
> different type of precision.
> >> It might be more useful, now that I think about it, to have a conv= ersion
>> from tenses to time sumti, so that one could point at th= e present moment via
>> a conversion from {nau}, as well as assign= other times via conversion of the
>> other things in PU.
>
> We have FIhO to convert a sel= bri into a tag. Since every tag (tenses
> are one case of tags) can b= e thought of as "FIhO broda" for some
> appropriate broda, = all you need to do is figure out which broda
> corresponds to the tag you want to convert, and then use "lo brod= a" as
> the sumti.
>
>> I haven't thought ve= ry hard about the grammar here (I
>> don't even know if there&= #39;s a selma'o for this) but (using {ja'u} since it is
>> actually fairly hard to find a free CV'V):
>> .i ja&#= 39;u pu zo'e [ku?] goi ko'a mi klama lo zarci .i ba ko'a mi kla= ma lo
>> zdani
>> "At an earlier time (ko'a) I w= ent to a store). After that, I {tense relative
>> to the present not specified} go to a house."
>
>= ; You could say:
>
> pu ku ca zo'e goi ko'a mi klama= lo zarci .i ba ko'a mi klama lo zdani
>
> Personally, I t= hink Lojban already has way more cmavo than it should,
> so I'm generally not in favor of adding new cmavo just because one= can
> think of possible uses for them.
>
> I think it m= ight not have been a bad idea for "nau" to be in selma'o
> KOhA rather than being a tag, but I don't think adding things to K= OhA
> now is such a good idea, when I would like to remove about half= the
> things that are there already.
>
> mu'o mi= 9;e xorxes
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscri= bed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
> To post to this = group, send email to lojban@goog= legroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>

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