From lojban+bncCNTPpI2KGxD5w8flBBoEoPMl9g@googlegroups.com Sun Oct 10 08:55:54 2010 Received: from mail-px0-f189.google.com ([209.85.212.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P4yFZ-000574-Fo; Sun, 10 Oct 2010 08:55:53 -0700 Received: by pxi19 with SMTP id 19sf2620864pxi.16 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 2010 08:55:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:x-authority-analysis:x-cloudmark-score :x-originating-ip:received:received:from:to:subject:date:user-agent :references:in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition; bh=KFX5C/GrU6cM5sPOPqARN9Y+NVqW8psikB5cbTVUww8=; b=OSIsW0MzeZFvrHzT2UHkt/wy4D/eQNb5GKTyec6IrBJ+UovnFg8TQPyhZOJNkfJ0wY OwK8D3FIHQddbcXfsWLTrlk1n1cWdjj3Dv00tliIwZe4TV61fhkM6fd+W0+1zxSfJwku f+J5E99FrkJVpiq8kwFCjOPP1PsA1EDZa11eY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-authority-analysis:x-cloudmark-score :x-originating-ip:from:to:subject:date:user-agent:references :in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition; b=ZsshLz+CLhmQp8NvE2gr5/BSkFt1UAC8AfiyqNeQdLwelDLko2BfK6xiQGl+D3+8xZ Y/qd7cBhmpylMbY4KLUeWQ7orxaYEuA4jX/0Yl7Mdazc4LCAGrSakksVx8Fza16FXhVn nlpdJUG5Bulb+qnXiL4Ig56IsfFInFJFYoQpc= Received: by 10.142.151.42 with SMTP id y42mr11447wfd.11.1286726137812; Sun, 10 Oct 2010 08:55:37 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.117.7 with SMTP id p7ls925035wfc.3.p; Sun, 10 Oct 2010 08:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.40.10 with SMTP id s10mr1195718wfj.41.1286726136997; Sun, 10 Oct 2010 08:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.40.10 with SMTP id s10mr1195717wfj.41.1286726136973; Sun, 10 Oct 2010 08:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.122]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id w30si5656753wfd.3.2010.10.10.08.55.36; Sun, 10 Oct 2010 08:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.122 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) client-ip=75.180.132.122; X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=lu/RhtYP0ChAeUxMEPBris12a71TWT5f9yvo3GNwP9w= c=1 sm=0 a=omI4Fsr0TGEA:10 a=wPDyFdB5xvgA:10 a=Q9fys5e9bTEA:10 a=9o99xeNKNPYSmM5t9x5+TQ==:17 a=--gaIV9q0_-1I8DnIjYA:9 a=WcxJJCqpOmefCSd_XY3tdU-nuBcA:4 a=PUjeQqilurYA:10 a=9o99xeNKNPYSmM5t9x5+TQ==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 75.176.118.168 Received: from [75.176.118.168] ([75.176.118.168:37434] helo=chausie) by cdptpa-oedge02.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 59/4A-14228-7F1E1BC4; Sun, 10 Oct 2010 15:55:35 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chausie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EF40BCB5 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 2010 11:55:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Learning cmavo Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 11:55:32 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 0.20070907.709405) References: <269822.59704.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <269822.59704.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <201010101155.33870.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Original-Sender: phma@phma.optus.nu X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.122 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) smtp.mail=phma@phma.optus.nu Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline On Sunday 10 October 2010 10:15:40 John E Clifford wrote: > People who display some problems dealing with the technical terminology, > unique to Lojban, for describing Lojban. It is hard enough to learn a new > language, without having to learn a new way of talking about language, a > way which will make sense only after you learn the language (if then). > This manner of talking grew up, sometimes consciously, in response to JCB's > habitual misuse of English to describe Loglan ("metaphor" for tanru is the > most infamous example). Somehow, the idea of using English correctly never > seems to have gained any ground, but it is still available when > clarification is needed. Okay, can we list the proper English terms for talking about Lojban? The "hyphen letter" is an interfix, whether used in a type-3 fu'ivla or a lujvo. A "modal" is a preposition. I call BAI proper prepositions, as distinct from tense markers which can also be prepositions. "do'e", however, is a proper preposition but not a "modal", as it is not derived from a brivla (though you could say it means "fi'o co'e"). "ka'e" and "ca'a" are modals (as the term is used in other languages). I don't think it's possible to completely avoid using Lojban terminology when describing Lojban grammar, just as one can't describe Hebrew grammar without using words like "niph`al" (or "N-stem", but the "N" is still a Hebrew prefix). But we can use standard linguistic terminology for a lot of it. Pierre -- The Black Garden on the Mountain is not on the Black Mountain. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.