From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDyzcflBBoEav_JmQ@googlegroups.com Sun Oct 10 09:17:05 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P4ya5-00060Z-VY; Sun, 10 Oct 2010 09:17:04 -0700 Received: by gya1 with SMTP id 1sf2622217gya.16 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 2010 09:16:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=5NxVOVPPFVM2rJqfpIpkUKfd5TsZRg9vnE5ioIZmN4U=; b=gh6y4vC+6aRNZhOSmks5fBlZaB9622fOpkRN4Z6CY+FrRXLy8zy85OePTdHxxIHaGx mStTU29gIK8/0ymP+4OVPxUY76ZIVZlsZBG4FZ91eqIT0abH68yrvGiuay1hyHWbwAHc OcUi/HVR8DhHgg7fZnBsnYsvT9/D5FX4ObeHI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=5V26WT/zGKifhaepZE/k6nUIHCjVhzpcpczAZE/zpgA9PnuBuGOlv/09uTBVjKA5Zm FUYHBAo26+Pl3ISfGTWYdImO0QNvQU41wTm4tqQ5sumsODeYvDLalrJ3rSHfAuxZ+z6+ Fxb14g/60eXKbkhw8GUA8JxTfALp20BqcCBzA= Received: by 10.101.27.36 with SMTP id e36mr62766anj.34.1286727410174; Sun, 10 Oct 2010 09:16:50 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.194.29 with SMTP id w29ls617857anp.1.p; Sun, 10 Oct 2010 09:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.69.13 with SMTP id w13mr1466731ank.20.1286727409364; Sun, 10 Oct 2010 09:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.69.13 with SMTP id w13mr1466730ank.20.1286727409343; Sun, 10 Oct 2010 09:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.120]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id v15si3534377ana.6.2010.10.10.09.16.48; Sun, 10 Oct 2010 09:16:48 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.120 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.120; Received: (qmail 88927 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Oct 2010 16:16:47 -0000 Message-ID: <881681.88243.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: QXgTVTcVM1lM9YXP0Ei5yUcVtn0A_RnsYSCyK3PuE5N3mhn MPUfGN1sT3FaHBDTqUKFD80NhRNfZWokm9aCiMRpF.xq7z_KnwlZNbr2bhOJ YCOdpJPJzXdqmVrgQ8Ea14Ox_pDmf2iaM.hX.w9G9S_eB2tebgnTYungUSO9 SDnxKjg_Hs8UQDC5JHP4FJ6Qs4JsIN_rZ4Cww4tsv2js5L6eyz2FB0hagtNF Od2DCLsGJSw5iaar.lYsh7iXTm6NVN4sxVylSG8JXEDiuZ3Dbg9fGED_.y1c 2MKt6uQ_7xjjBaSiptnHKomsuVey7D_DTkPioiYp53dKen3qjM25T2Wi15EN Obkh8oOhymDnEnasOxQ-- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 10 Oct 2010 09:16:47 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/504.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.106.282862 References: <269822.59704.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201010101155.33870.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 09:16:47 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Learning cmavo To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <201010101155.33870.phma@phma.optus.nu> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.120 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Well, yes, there is the problem of form and function (and derivation) not always flowing together well, so a clear demarcation between those various factors (and there are probably others) would be useful -- and readily available. Of course, you lose some in group elitism in the process, but clarity and ease of learning might make it worthwhile. ----- Original Message ---- From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, October 10, 2010 10:55:32 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Learning cmavo On Sunday 10 October 2010 10:15:40 John E Clifford wrote: > People who display some problems dealing with the technical terminology, > unique to Lojban, for describing Lojban. It is hard enough to learn a new > language, without having to learn a new way of talking about language, a > way which will make sense only after you learn the language (if then). > This manner of talking grew up, sometimes consciously, in response to JCB's > habitual misuse of English to describe Loglan ("metaphor" for tanru is the > most infamous example). Somehow, the idea of using English correctly never > seems to have gained any ground, but it is still available when > clarification is needed. Okay, can we list the proper English terms for talking about Lojban? The "hyphen letter" is an interfix, whether used in a type-3 fu'ivla or a lujvo. A "modal" is a preposition. I call BAI proper prepositions, as distinct from tense markers which can also be prepositions. "do'e", however, is a proper preposition but not a "modal", as it is not derived from a brivla (though you could say it means "fi'o co'e"). "ka'e" and "ca'a" are modals (as the term is used in other languages). I don't think it's possible to completely avoid using Lojban terminology when describing Lojban grammar, just as one can't describe Hebrew grammar without using words like "niph`al" (or "N-stem", but the "N" is still a Hebrew prefix). But we can use standard linguistic terminology for a lot of it. Pierre -- The Black Garden on the Mountain is not on the Black Mountain. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.