From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCm0c3lBBoEQ3vatg@googlegroups.com Mon Oct 11 12:42:49 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P5OGi-0000QS-QL; Mon, 11 Oct 2010 12:42:49 -0700 Received: by yxk30 with SMTP id 30sf3077091yxk.16 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2010 12:42:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=J42vdk8M/QwKD3Q9Vpu3OWHIyGDwqQXoU3+YIxEE6h4=; b=cWTDcXshMU20/CL6JXq61jceOjMZSGOW6pdUdD1CvXs1xJFjqq47mzieXYy4d/Ej1O Mddq3aHhTKP+dbV7hER62+y/OrXgw7+ZP3Lfyi7Tp+TCiHTn5DhI8/0vi9GDTFr5Q1Iy aEOE8G2RAMO1t/9IpqXrVmbKChmE5CIb24SqU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=JTaCtv07TS7lidtxGeNsV0NFnKWKWUOkT0nbFvs1l/uLlKGRYfuDNKH7qFjguVNiJj pqfSV2c2krl6AahqiyCVZOEuVbQzn5WcMkGKva6pKQs6nfYXolDiQ09uk3j+nuNeq/ib eqPUzwjd5afKzRoNsb4iylk2QW6hk8BvtbRB0= Received: by 10.150.171.15 with SMTP id t15mr539773ybe.71.1286826150427; Mon, 11 Oct 2010 12:42:30 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.53.21 with SMTP id b21ls1427473yba.4.p; Mon, 11 Oct 2010 12:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.105.233 with SMTP id k69mr1791724yhg.2.1286826149758; Mon, 11 Oct 2010 12:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.105.233 with SMTP id k69mr1791723yhg.2.1286826149737; Mon, 11 Oct 2010 12:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.118]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id u69si2708544yhc.12.2010.10.11.12.42.28; Mon, 11 Oct 2010 12:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.118; Received: (qmail 81478 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Oct 2010 19:42:28 -0000 Message-ID: <141954.78678.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 9db2T6cVM1nbkcd5ACXAyobPLKzz93xXHiLsPewz1Mp2czB Cud93v_SV.IQHwROBoI99MW7uZ1NVYQERLd9FbWBBF.21Gmk0M15R5.tvFVk NpF_L9QtxYNt2.rvQwC.rGFEP.QgLvhxornjAV3XFRUt7ouvAPkXpPr9Thlq tJsU.cboAvMkiX9sAdOzYcqQKijbZgMZYZSkp_itaawx4spRrCknjZhn9LgS tPZSBkozsj5PfC6LUlkw.wWx.2e.x5QAE.54Z_oUL3wyOEExWAruNWoe8W6f vO4NHBHVPMY0UNCtu.nBJ0aflGMo1ZPd4CTwluDVjBJJOJNOckKruDqn3kL8 9ZVKgkbHk6XnEiUORB8.aOMqfqw8UiU7LoM.AR77d Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 11 Oct 2010 12:42:28 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/504.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.106.282862 References: <201010081902.22934.phma@phma.optus.nu> <20101009152624.GA1918@alice.local> <82e4f805-b84d-4921-96a4-44f3217cd093@j18g2000yqd.googlegroups.com> <518902.87375.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 12:42:28 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Learning cmavo To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Yes, the story comes from the late 60s or early 70s. since part of it was already solid in the first big printing of Loglan (basically the most finished part of MEX) ----- Original Message ---- From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 1:03:28 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Learning cmavo But that goes all the way back to the Loglan "bi", doesn't it? (which only meant "=", IIRC) --gejyspa On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 1:51 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > Why is the word for the concept of identity not in the class of basic words > (those of form CVCCV or CCVC)? Well it usta was; 'dunli' is the relict of > that ancient time. But then the powers that were notice that people > generally used 'same' and even 'identical' to mean something relative to > some relevant property;. At the same time, during one of the occasional > thinking sprees about MEX, some one noted they needed an word for '=' that > fit in with that program. Soooo, eventually the two concepts split, the > practical, relative one going to a gismu, the stricter, more mathematical, > to something tha looked OK in formulae. More or less. > ________________________________ > From: Ian Johnson > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > Sent: Sun, October 10, 2010 12:08:08 PM > Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Learning cmavo > > I know that, I meant why is the word that means what {du} means in GOhA and > a cmavo? That is, why isn't it a gismu? > mu'o mi'e latros. > > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 6:10 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> >> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Ian Johnson >> wrote: >>> >>> ...Agh. "A word is a selbri." I know there aren't many ways of saying >>> that better, but I still cringe a bit at that. >>> Also, why IS {du} in GOhA? Why is it even a cmavo? >> >> It's a cmavo because of it's shape. It's a CV word. All CV words are >> cmavo. >> >>> >>> Also, a few more typos: >>> {bu'a} and friends are numbered wrong. >>> {ma} has "simti" instead of "sumti" >>> Nice, by the way. >>> mu'o mi'e latros. >>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Lindar wrote: >>>> >>>> du means "x1 is exactly the same thing as x2" >>>> >>>> Not like "this apple is exactly the same as that apple", but "Jeff's >>>> apple is the same as this apple." x1 and x2 of {du} are one and the >>>> same object/person/thing/idea. I believe it's derived from dunli, >>>> which is where 1 and 2 are similar objects and x3 is the similar >>>> trait. If there was anything in Lojban that was like "is", {du} would >>>> probably be it (in the sense of "Mr. Jingle is Jeff's bird." OSLT). >>>> >>>> So... not pro-bridi, it's an actual selbri. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu >> do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.