From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCj-M3lBBoEDe8qJA@googlegroups.com Mon Oct 11 14:06:03 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P5PZA-0004dw-4O; Mon, 11 Oct 2010 14:06:03 -0700 Received: by yxk30 with SMTP id 30sf3193458yxk.16 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2010 14:05:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=y2/uCurDF1HspqfXpSUw+wu4UR/SYcYeb5mDtYnwMKQ=; b=wZNJU2EtqjCaYQhXx0tdRoDvL7TpKD0smuRZQuhpmkxX1urQdQPL47WP7kBPKk6n/K Px2sAi+WMtFsX5CzZKMeOmJAju9R6rX6oxu5ePQaZVyzUNiAfFF1bSQPdvln3fVNUvVi p5T6u1YbviM7zEw1//A9E+wHHSjNILlqj0Y/s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=Kv9TwfOHnfdaNAZjo70h0xaw6TS/r8Aq18n9fRXcmSv4lWeohQFFoxBfkotiCVPC67 gZDGC3/4hJpVpfVF3m7D2k9Hm8vm4+Xn5DqTTilYD+X5xYw+RTSjBeLThddzTKeIqCDN ofO868qbdrY2hTqNsCcnwq7GmddYPAvwBJvxo= Received: by 10.91.160.11 with SMTP id m11mr478300ago.53.1286831139647; Mon, 11 Oct 2010 14:05:39 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.112.41 with SMTP id u41ls1960647ibp.1.p; Mon, 11 Oct 2010 14:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.183.11 with SMTP id ce11mr1694773ibb.5.1286831138080; Mon, 11 Oct 2010 14:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.183.11 with SMTP id ce11mr1694772ibb.5.1286831138004; Mon, 11 Oct 2010 14:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f173.google.com (mail-iw0-f173.google.com [209.85.214.173]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id b32si4258296ibq.1.2010.10.11.14.05.36; Mon, 11 Oct 2010 14:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.173 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.173; Received: by mail-iw0-f173.google.com with SMTP id 34so2329998iwn.32 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2010 14:05:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.191.16 with SMTP id dk16mr1990027icb.506.1286831136696; Mon, 11 Oct 2010 14:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.206.68 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Oct 2010 14:05:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 15:05:36 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Ranking system? (I'm a level X Lojbanist) From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.173 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf30434a5ac9e75304925db84f --20cf30434a5ac9e75304925db84f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Proof the Lindar is an ass - he wants to turn learning Lojban into an addictive video game. Proof that being an ass isn't always a bad thing - It would work. On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 11:41 PM, Lindar wrote: > > http://www.cracked.com/article_18461_5-creepy-ways-video-games-are-trying-to-get-you-addicted.html > > These items are based on the article linked above. > (You may want to read it first/at the same time, but it's not > necessary.) > > > 5. lo tanxe be fi'a la .skinr. > > Pulling the most basic ideas out of our arses, we can use a modified > spaced-repetition system to learn vocabulary words (I like how SmartFM > does it. Flash cards for the gismu and one for each place as well as > the reverse, plus a multiple-choice and a fill-in-the-blank.), but we > give experience points on a curve (much like the standard MMO levels > are fast at first, and take proportionately longer as one continues). > What happens when we hit that lull about 1/3 to 1/2 of the way to the > level-cap? > > 4. lo pacman xu > > Some kind of unrelated thing! A side effect of killing monsters in an > MMO is getting items/money which can be cashed in for better items, > which makes killing that next tier of monsters a bit easier. When > you're not grinding and levelling, you're focusing on getting that > newest suit of armour, that cool new sword, that spell scroll, and so > on. However, that stuff comes easily with levelling, so you get > collectibles. Cards are a great example for this. Employing this in > the idea for Lojban, we can reward skins, collectible cards, avatar > decorations, or anything else applicable. Once the player is done > levelling, there's still another activity they have to do to earn > those other items. Maybe once they're done with vocab exercises, the > players can hop on IRC and earn credits for every line of Lojban they > use (this is obviously not a perfect idea, but you see what I mean). > So for every 50-100 lines of Lojban, they can earn X credits (perhaps > modified by their level), which go towards a collectible item. > > 3. lo dirgo be lo cizda'u > > Every X number of successes earns the player a chance to do activity Y > which has a random chance of producing desired effect Z. Perhaps after > every 10 new words in SRS the player gets a chance to pull a slot > machine lever to get a bonus Z. This could be coins (as mentioned in > previous), mini-games (which also somehow teach lojban), or any other > kind of reward. Using this kind of system all over means that the > users will press that button thousands and thousands of times because > they don't know just when that next pellet will come out. Again, start > it on a curve, like... > > 2. lo rapybatke > > ...easing them into playing. Start off with fast levels, (small) > rewards more often, get them hooked. Yes, this is what drug peddlers/ > tobacco companies to do get people hooked and get more customers. Why > not do it for good instead of evil? =D > > Let's take a hint from both the MMO and casual game markets. Involve > players in small, bite-sized adventures with immediate rewards. Before > they've even started, they're already done! It's like eating potato > chips. It's small, delicious, crunchy, satisfying, but not enough. So > the player eats another one, and another one, and very quickly the > whole bag is gone without the player having noticed. > > However, it's not good to fill up on crisps, so we have to include > meal options here. Space the save points out so that if the mission is > abandoned, the player loses all of that progress. One must finish or > lose the progress for the entire mission. It's the all-you-can-eat > scenario. No matter how hungry a person is, ey only has so much room, > but ey must eat enough to warrant the purchase. > > So now we have our burger and chips. > > Penultimate element is "play it or lose it". In Everquest, one must > return to one's castle or it will decay. In Farmville (facebook game) > one must constantly tend to one's crops or they will wither. In Animal > Crossing, one must play every day or the town will become infested > with weeds and the player's neighbours will feel lonely. The whole > idea is to introduce an element wherein the player's progress will > decay if not advanced, or at least maintained. This is pretty much a > given in Lojban, however, as NOT playing means forgetting Lojban. > > Finally, putting in an achievement system (think XBOX, steam, and > similar) gives players a reason to continue long after everything else > is done. Even fluent players would want to unlock the achievements! > "Writer Rank 1" - Player has written at least one short story which > has been recognised by the BPFK. =D > > 1. norgleki > > Autonomy (that is, you have some say in what you do day to day); > Complexity (so it's not mind-numbing repetition); > Connection Between Effort and Reward (i.e. you actually see the > awesome results of your hard work). > > These are the three things that a person needs to have a satisfying > job. I bet you don't even have two of them. Video games fill a void > and are designed to fill in all three of these, or at least make you > think you're getting all three of these things. > > Autonomy: Class, race, quests, skills, build. > > Allow the players a choice in what activities they do. Do they want to > learn a certain selma'o? A certain set of concepts (time and space > cmavo, words about colours, animal names)? Do we introduce other > choices like creating a virtual country and giving the player a choice > between cities/backgrounds/other choice? > > Complexity: Remember all those quests? They were the same thing (fetch > 100 $item !) over and over again, but they got more complex. Fetch 100 > $item_a, then continue to $place to talk to $sage who will turn them > into $component_a and tell you that you need $item_b and $item_c to > get $component_b and $component_c plus $reagent, and then you have to > go through $dungeon to $ancient_fires to bless them, and then cool > them in $sacred_waters of $holy_place, but you have $short_time to get > them from $ancient_fires to $sacred_waters, so you better hurry. You > get the point. So, really, it's just fighting monsters over and over > again, but you THINK it's complex. > > Connection between effort and reward: DAH DAAAAAHHH!! Victory music, > lights, sounds, confetti, level up, new abilities! "Knowing more > Lojban" is, unfortunately, a side effect. You need immediate > neurological stimulation in addition to the more obvious rewards > (better items, which is a "wow, these -are- better") and higher level > areas, "Huh, this is kinda cool.". Likewise, we have to provide some > kind of immediate connection so the player recognises that they are > being rewarded, and that it is a good thing. > > So, in a world dominated by technology and gaming, why not turn Lojban > into something fun. Perhaps we can tie in a story line? Turn the > children's show (or a comic book series, or something else, but a plot > none the less) into the variable spaced reward. =D > > Let me know what you guys think and if you have any suggestions. Throw > this idea around and concept as much as you'd like. I'll be back later. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --20cf30434a5ac9e75304925db84f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Proof the Lindar is an ass - he wants to turn learning Lojban into an addic= tive video game.

Proof that being an ass isn't always a bad thin= g - It would work.

On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 a= t 11:41 PM, Lindar <lindarthebard@yahoo.com> wrote:
http://www.cracked.com/article_18461_5= -creepy-ways-video-games-are-trying-to-get-you-addicted.html

These items are based on the article linked above.
(You may want to read it first/at the same time, but it's not
necessary.)


5. lo tanxe be fi'a la .skinr.

Pulling the most basic ideas out of our arses, we can use a modified
spaced-repetition system to learn vocabulary words (I like how SmartFM
does it. Flash cards for the gismu and one for each place as well as
the reverse, plus a multiple-choice and a fill-in-the-blank.), but we
give experience points on a curve (much like the standard MMO levels
are fast at first, and take proportionately longer as one continues).
What happens when we hit that lull about 1/3 to 1/2 of the way to the
level-cap?

4. lo pacman xu

Some kind of unrelated thing! A side effect of killing monsters in an
MMO is getting items/money which can be cashed in for better items,
which makes killing that next tier of monsters a bit easier. When
you're not grinding and levelling, you're focusing on getting that<= br> newest suit of armour, that cool new sword, that spell scroll, and so
on. However, that stuff comes easily with levelling, so you get
collectibles. Cards are a great example for this. Employing this in
the idea for Lojban, we can reward skins, collectible cards, avatar
decorations, or anything else applicable. Once the player is done
levelling, there's still another activity they have to do to earn
those other items. Maybe once they're done with vocab exercises, the players can hop on IRC and earn credits for every line of Lojban they
use (this is obviously not a perfect idea, but you see what I mean).
So for every 50-100 lines of Lojban, they can earn X credits (perhaps
modified by their level), which go towards a collectible item.

3. lo dirgo be lo cizda'u

Every X number of successes earns the player a chance to do activity Y
which has a random chance of producing desired effect Z. Perhaps after
every 10 new words in SRS the player gets a chance to pull a slot
machine lever to get a bonus Z. This could be coins (as mentioned in
previous), mini-games (which also somehow teach lojban), or any other
kind of reward. Using this kind of system all over means that the
users will press that button thousands and thousands of times because
they don't know just when that next pellet will come out. Again, start<= br> it on a curve, like...

2. lo rapybatke

...easing them into playing. Start off with fast levels, (small)
rewards more often, get them hooked. Yes, this is what drug peddlers/
tobacco companies to do get people hooked and get more customers. Why
not do it for good instead of evil? =3DD

Let's take a hint from both the MMO and casual game markets. Involve players in small, bite-sized adventures with immediate rewards. Before
they've even started, they're already done! It's like eating po= tato
chips. It's small, delicious, crunchy, satisfying, but not enough. So the player eats another one, and another one, and very quickly the
whole bag is gone without the player having noticed.

However, it's not good to fill up on crisps, so we have to include
meal options here. Space the save points out so that if the mission is
abandoned, the player loses all of that progress. One must finish or
lose the progress for the entire mission. It's the all-you-can-eat
scenario. No matter how hungry a person is, ey only has so much room,
but ey must eat enough to warrant the purchase.

So now we have our burger and chips.

Penultimate element is "play it or lose it". In Everquest, one mu= st
return to one's castle or it will decay. In Farmville (facebook game) one must constantly tend to one's crops or they will wither. In Animal<= br> Crossing, one must play every day or the town will become infested
with weeds and the player's neighbours will feel lonely. The whole
idea is to introduce an element wherein the player's progress will
decay if not advanced, or at least maintained. This is pretty much a
given in Lojban, however, as NOT playing means forgetting Lojban.

Finally, putting in an achievement system (think XBOX, steam, and
similar) gives players a reason to continue long after everything else
is done. Even fluent players would want to unlock the achievements!
"Writer Rank 1" - Player has written at least one short story whi= ch
has been recognised by the BPFK. =3DD

1. norgleki

Autonomy (that is, you have some say in what you do day to day);
Complexity (so it's not mind-numbing repetition);
Connection Between Effort and Reward (i.e. you actually see the
awesome results of your hard work).

These are the three things that a person needs to have a satisfying
job. I bet you don't even have two of them. Video games fill a void
and are designed to fill in all three of these, or at least make you
think you're getting all three of these things.

Autonomy: Class, race, quests, skills, build.

Allow the players a choice in what activities they do. Do they want to
learn a certain selma'o? A certain set of concepts (time and space
cmavo, words about colours, animal names)? Do we introduce other
choices like creating a virtual country and giving the player a choice
between cities/backgrounds/other choice?

Complexity: Remember all those quests? They were the same thing (fetch
100 $item !) over and over again, but they got more complex. Fetch 100
$item_a, then continue to $place to talk to $sage who will turn them
into $component_a and tell you that you need $item_b and $item_c to
get $component_b and $component_c plus $reagent, and then you have to
go through $dungeon to $ancient_fires to bless them, and then cool
them in $sacred_waters of $holy_place, but you have $short_time to get
them from $ancient_fires to $sacred_waters, so you better hurry. You
get the point. So, really, it's just fighting monsters over and over again, but you THINK it's complex.

Connection between effort and reward: DAH DAAAAAHHH!! Victory music,
lights, sounds, confetti, level up, new abilities! "Knowing more
Lojban" is, unfortunately, a side effect. You need immediate
neurological stimulation in addition to the more obvious rewards
(better items, which is a "wow, these -are- better") and higher l= evel
areas, "Huh, this is kinda cool.". Likewise, we have to provide s= ome
kind of immediate connection so the player recognises that they are
being rewarded, and that it is a good thing.

So, in a world dominated by technology and gaming, why not turn Lojban
into something fun. Perhaps we can tie in a story line? Turn the
children's show (or a comic book series, or something else, but a plot<= br> none the less) into the variable spaced reward. =3DD

Let me know what you guys think and if you have any suggestions. Throw
this idea around and concept as much as you'd like. I'll be back la= ter.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.




--
mu'o mi'= e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa= bu .i doi luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am y= our father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--20cf30434a5ac9e75304925db84f--