From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARDSmaPlBBoEiOTgQg@googlegroups.com Sun Oct 03 11:35:19 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P2TOz-0004cm-32; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 11:35:18 -0700 Received: by qyk29 with SMTP id 29sf2353065qyk.16 for ; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 11:35:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=9+ZRyk0JSar838cwAd/xxrIUJzeaD55AqK5lELQRGwI=; b=sA5HFtN2AZwdgtNT0b78vZUNkBXz2BUg9D4IucBFrKWJ9c+1Y3OQPX9labXNoGqyAc fKU3bvDNmYmFWMkrfjB2A8hWS09Ibln+pVSeNjHZtyOO5SS01SG3Qc0R+1o1YC6Gp47T 2NEglrsSKKffD16x3+x616M2ChSy13hOwmMBY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=HR869/i7QPhK+nRXi6kCyJa8QGge/zP+8pZOBhQIsGayd7DSfqTeVrAEAxMaXUiut1 S1NT/gUugU2McAfKnMgmhqd9cr2HjfbFtdn6BLzrJyMw43RRGD9kI9x3t10/fcr61QQ4 7jLy10LP6ntuNTr4+rD1uefVyJDJBbI/UlD+c= Received: by 10.224.69.202 with SMTP id a10mr785118qaj.32.1286130898581; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 11:34:58 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.97.224 with SMTP id m32ls1230347qan.2.p; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 11:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.28.139 with SMTP id m11mr980331qac.12.1286130897420; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 11:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.28.139 with SMTP id m11mr980330qac.12.1286130897378; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 11:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f179.google.com (mail-qy0-f179.google.com [209.85.216.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id y16si2213865qce.8.2010.10.03.11.34.56; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 11:34:56 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.179; Received: by mail-qy0-f179.google.com with SMTP id 7so139484qyk.3 for ; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 11:34:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.65.95 with SMTP id h31mr5926891qai.116.1286130896132; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 11:34:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.92.2 with HTTP; Sun, 3 Oct 2010 11:34:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 14:34:56 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] A pro-sumti for PU? From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00c09f89922832dd0d0491baaf10 --00c09f89922832dd0d0491baaf10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That still doesn't explain why {ku} is used instead of {zo'e}, only that it can be used in that way. I don't really understand why that is helpful, linguistically, though I understand that it isn't going anywhere. I suppose my wrinkle here is basically with getting my head around PU in particular as just being a shorthand for a FIhO construction. Knowing that it is and internalizing this to the point that I can easily construct meanings as desired are different. I suppose this may help. How do I say something equivalent to this, preferably with the same kind of extensibility, or can I not do so?: I went to my house. Define the time at which I did this to be A. Before A, = I left the store. Define the time at which I did this to be B. Before A but after B I went to my friend's house. Thus unambigously establishing the sequence: I left the store. Then I went to my friend's house. Then I went to my house= . without actually needing to come up with the events in the sequence in the order that they occurred. Granted, the idiomatic way to say this in English in this order would be: I went to my house. Before I went to my house, I left the store. Before I went to my house but after I left the store, I went to my friend's house. but we have {goi} to avoid this kind of thing already. mu'o mi'e latros. 2010/10/3 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 12:53 PM, Ian Johnson > wrote: > > Can you explain the use of {ku} to do something other than terminating > LE? I > > haven't seen this before, outside of this case with PU, which I had > thought > > was somehow anomalous (which was one of the reasons I came up with this > > idea). > > This is where CLL explains it: http://jbotcan.org/docs/cll/c9/s9.html > > (Something weird happened to the html at the end of that page. I don't > know if anyone is maintaining it.) > > "ca ku" and "ba ku" are probably the two most commonly used. > > I have used "va'o nai ku" for "otherwise", i.e. something like "not > under (contextual conditions)". > > "pu zu vu ku" has also been used as the start of fairy tales, as in > "once upon the time" or "long ago and far away". > > There are probably other common uses of "tag KU" that I'm forgetting now. > > > Some example sentences: > > ca ja'u mi klama lo zarci > > "I am going to a store at this moment" > > is the obvious example, which can apparently be done equivalently with > > {nau}: > > nau ku mi klama lo zarci > > Right. > > > The other example that {nau} can't do is using {ja'u} as an argument, > which > > I can't immediately think of a good example for, but: > > lo broda ku brode ja'u > > would be grammatical. This is more exact as a usage than {lo cabna be > dei}, > > in that it doesn't point to one or more things simultaneous with the > > utterance, but rather to the time that the utterance is made itself. > > You can also use "lo tcika be dei" or "lo detri be dei" for a > different type of precision. > > > It might be more useful, now that I think about it, to have a conversio= n > > from tenses to time sumti, so that one could point at the present momen= t > via > > a conversion from {nau}, as well as assign other times via conversion o= f > the > > other things in PU. > > We have FIhO to convert a selbri into a tag. Since every tag (tenses > are one case of tags) can be thought of as "FIhO broda" for some > appropriate broda, all you need to do is figure out which broda > corresponds to the tag you want to convert, and then use "lo broda" as > the sumti. > > > I haven't thought very hard about the grammar here (I > > don't even know if there's a selma'o for this) but (using {ja'u} since = it > is > > actually fairly hard to find a free CV'V): > > .i ja'u pu zo'e [ku?] goi ko'a mi klama lo zarci .i ba ko'a mi klama lo > > zdani > > "At an earlier time (ko'a) I went to a store). After that, I {tense > relative > > to the present not specified} go to a house." > > You could say: > > pu ku ca zo'e goi ko'a mi klama lo zarci .i ba ko'a mi klama lo zdani > > Personally, I think Lojban already has way more cmavo than it should, > so I'm generally not in favor of adding new cmavo just because one can > think of possible uses for them. > > I think it might not have been a bad idea for "nau" to be in selma'o > KOhA rather than being a tag, but I don't think adding things to KOhA > now is such a good idea, when I would like to remove about half the > things that are there already. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --00c09f89922832dd0d0491baaf10 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That still doesn't explain why {ku} is used instead of {zo'e}, only= that it can be used in that way. I don't really understand why that is= helpful, linguistically, though I understand that it isn't going anywh= ere.

I suppose my wrinkle here is basically with getting my head = around PU in particular as just being a shorthand for a FIhO construction. = Knowing that it is and internalizing this to the point that I can easily co= nstruct meanings as desired are different.

I suppose this may help. How do I say something equival= ent to this, preferably with the same kind of extensibility, or can I not d= o so?:
I went to my house. Define the time at which I did this to= be A. Before A, I left the store. Define the time at which I did this to b= e B. Before A but after B I went to my friend's house.
Thus unambigously establishing the sequence:
I left the stor= e. Then I went to my friend's house. Then I went to my house.
without actually needing to come up with the events in the sequence in the= order that they occurred. Granted, the idiomatic way to say this in Englis= h in this order would be:
I went to my house. Before I went to my house, I left the store. Befor= e I went to my house but after I left the store, I went to my friend's = house.=A0
but we have {goi} to avoid this kind of thing already.<= /div>

mu'o mi'e latros.

2010/10/3 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 12:53 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote: > Can you explain the use of {ku} to do something other than terminating= LE? I
> haven't seen this before, outside of this case with PU, which I ha= d thought
> was somehow anomalous (which was one of the reasons I came up with thi= s
> idea).

This is where CLL explains it: http://jbotcan.org/docs/cll/c9/s9.html
(Something weird happened to the html at the end of that page. I don't<= br> know if anyone is maintaining it.)

"ca ku" and "ba ku" are probably the two most commonly = used.

I have used "va'o nai ku" for "otherwise", i.e. som= ething like "not
under (contextual conditions)".

"pu zu vu ku" has also been used as the start of fairy tales, as = in
"once upon the time" or "long ago and far away".

There are probably other common uses of "tag KU" that I'm for= getting now.

> Some example sentences:
> ca ja'u mi klama lo zarci
> "I am going to a store at this moment"
> is the obvious example, which can apparently be done equivalently with=
> {nau}:
> nau ku mi klama lo zarci

Right.

> The other example that {nau} can't do is using {ja'u} as an ar= gument, which
> I can't immediately think of a good example for, but:
> lo broda ku brode ja'u
> would be grammatical. This is more exact as a usage than {lo cabna be = dei},
> in that it doesn't point to one or more things simultaneous with t= he
> utterance, but rather to the time that the utterance is made itself.
You can also use "lo tcika be dei" or "lo detri be dei= " for a
different type of precision.

> It might be more useful, now that I think about it, to have a conversi= on
> from tenses to time sumti, so that one could point at the present mome= nt via
> a conversion from {nau}, as well as assign other times via conversion = of the
> other things in PU.

We have FIhO to convert a selbri into a tag. Since every tag (tenses<= br> are one case of tags) can be thought of as "FIhO broda" for some<= br> appropriate broda, all you need to do is figure out which broda
corresponds to the tag you want to convert, and then use "lo broda&quo= t; as
the sumti.

> I haven't thought very hard about the grammar here (I
> don't even know if there's a selma'o for this) but (using = {ja'u} since it is
> actually fairly hard to find a free CV'V):
> .i ja'u pu zo'e [ku?] goi ko'a mi klama lo zarci .i ba ko&= #39;a mi klama lo
> zdani
> "At an earlier time (ko'a) I went to a store). After that, I = {tense relative
> to the present not specified} go to a house."

You could say:

=A0pu ku ca zo'e goi ko'a mi klama lo zarci .i ba ko'a mi klam= a lo zdani

Personally, I think Lojban already has way more cmavo than it should,
so I'm generally not in favor of adding new cmavo just because one can<= br> think of possible uses for them.

I think it might not have been a bad idea for "nau" to be in selm= a'o
KOhA rather than being a tag, but I don't think adding things to KOhA now is such a good idea, when I would like to remove about half the
things that are there already.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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