From lojban+bncCPrlgoD04bGDVBDD_9rlBBoECkOc1w@googlegroups.com Thu Oct 14 01:31:15 2010 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P6JDU-0004bL-C7; Thu, 14 Oct 2010 01:31:15 -0700 Received: by fxm16 with SMTP id 16sf757718fxm.16 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2010 01:31:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version:received :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=KGEKd1rXSteblVzHi5uQzp3tp1nxT4idg1V1qhpo6rU=; b=vHLW+7UrrsLO7ENksJqjO6Js7NjNFggIXPkEp0rILZ03uLnF+nFi9ineeflaMSX9JZ fyIwW/Uy3NiDUchU5xDmj46KUikJOOKaeEFTDZZsYvY5ViN8MIoK8Ygez1qYUV6AXXgU 9X6RtsPWViYxyPOFZdbWMwX9HzA1j22AGotNY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=fMG2l9r1/HwHzb/ZC3YhAcdH4D2lKy1aszEyDrMKM1psMrgT//XRLUYh5nvlhCgI6p xRkOqGbVu6GXmqB+aDWowIoagmP03rCwqkfroXolffeECo3i+1kgN+zeodasiNr3im8H LNjf+OPkZfWtZG3NTAkkDt/9FHOKKriAk0HhU= Received: by 10.223.58.13 with SMTP id e13mr245355fah.33.1287045059841; Thu, 14 Oct 2010 01:30:59 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.48.209 with SMTP id s17ls963407bkf.2.p; Thu, 14 Oct 2010 01:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.84.16 with SMTP id h16mr490023bkl.15.1287045059106; Thu, 14 Oct 2010 01:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.84.16 with SMTP id h16mr490022bkl.15.1287045059076; Thu, 14 Oct 2010 01:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f41.google.com (mail-fx0-f41.google.com [209.85.161.41]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id z17si7105415bkb.7.2010.10.14.01.30.57; Thu, 14 Oct 2010 01:30:58 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of philip.newton@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.41; Received: by fxm2 with SMTP id 2so2258131fxm.28 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2010 01:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.103.251.7 with SMTP id d7mr1781753mus.80.1287045057774; Thu, 14 Oct 2010 01:30:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.1.144 with HTTP; Thu, 14 Oct 2010 01:30:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201010131552.43986.phma@phma.optus.nu> References: <411619.6727.qm@web88008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <201010131021.22518.jezuch@interia.pl> <201010131552.43986.phma@phma.optus.nu> From: Philip Newton Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 10:30:37 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Challenging pronunciation To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: philip.newton@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of philip.newton@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=philip.newton@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/10/13 Pierre Abbat : > German has the ich-Laut and the ach-Laut, which are allophones, and "h", = which > is different. A quick check turned up no minimal pairs (some pairs looked > like them, such as "chatten/hatten", but the "ch" is pronounced otherwise= ). > Maybe some German on the list can think of some. I think the problem is that /h/ only really occurs syllable-initially, and /x/ (with its [x]/[X] and [C] allophones) only really occurs syllable-finally. Syllable-final is generally just orthographic, sometimes indicating a longer vowel sound but sometims merely "decorative" (etymological) - some of those got dropped in the recent spelling reform, most notably "rau", which used to be "rauh". (But "roh" is still spelled that way, though it would be pronounced identically if spelled "ro".) But perhaps something like "d=E1hinter" (with contrastive stress, as in "behind *that* thing, not behind *this* one") and "Dach hinter" is close. mu'o mi'e .filip. --=20 Philip Newton --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.