From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARDNq6PlBBoE7XKpCA@googlegroups.com Sun Oct 03 12:13:33 2010 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P2U02-0006GQ-KC; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 12:13:33 -0700 Received: by qwf6 with SMTP id 6sf5777019qwf.16 for ; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 12:13:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=V3B5zFT0Vq7aN66vvWJzi67xk/KP5Wj/y7vqDtsorS0=; b=eWI/8g+GsEx9ju6+pBpYq/3q3IoCDrrp8SVwgBDUF0icUBVvjvXBPq/FIsoKBbj1FI /5pp0Qa6p+hCpX0SrDUShc3Sw7BkCzlJHMqpbBd1nzjFuloXQY1ZhEjN/Jj/7D+qNgrE cRcG7M8GKZaVENLEfBnCjaUpqmRyBNGI3CyPM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=n8qzNfFAAxxm3sNg5Ce71LhiwAr1q+5pLvQNp7Us/wTUOd0/QWS4BICUR3LPJtNet6 gD5GjDfshTlQchRb00DLiltex4K4QVVle0yeBs6jhC0fp+0XHnJe4wmaxEAxXlKk9fJF axq8u2bZP0zREBncHfP7kEZM6+jPKc2xOXauU= Received: by 10.224.69.225 with SMTP id a33mr786513qaj.29.1286133197932; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 12:13:17 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.87.217 with SMTP id x25ls1248771qal.0.p; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 12:13:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.28.139 with SMTP id m11mr988679qac.12.1286133197262; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 12:13:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.28.139 with SMTP id m11mr988677qac.12.1286133197224; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 12:13:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f178.google.com (mail-qy0-f178.google.com [209.85.216.178]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id x2si2229921qcq.11.2010.10.03.12.13.15; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 12:13:16 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.178; Received: by mail-qy0-f178.google.com with SMTP id 9so2904qyk.2 for ; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 12:13:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.234.4 with SMTP id ka4mr6095733qcb.12.1286133190105; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 12:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.92.2 with HTTP; Sun, 3 Oct 2010 12:13:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 15:13:09 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] A pro-sumti for PU? From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.178 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016363b8fbaee19cd0491bb370e --0016363b8fbaee19cd0491bb370e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So can you or can't you assign times to KOhA? In that case you assigned to BY, which is more ambiguous than KOhA, since the semantics of BY is mutabl= e from context alone. 2010/10/3 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Ian Johnson > wrote: > > That still doesn't explain why {ku} is used instead of {zo'e}, only tha= t > it > > can be used in that way. I don't really understand why that is helpful, > > linguistically, though I understand that it isn't going anywhere. > > Well, "ku" is a bit shorter than "zo'e", and sometimes can be elided. > Neither is a very convincing reason, but I can't think of any other at > the moment. > > > How do I say something equivalent to this, > > preferably with the same kind of extensibility, or can I not do so?: > > I doubt that you cannot say something in Lojban that you can say in > English (or vice versa for that matter). The only issue might be how > longwinded you need to make it, but not whether you can say it or not. > > > I went to my house. Define the time at which I did this to be A. Before > A, I > > left the store. Define the time at which I did this to be B. Before A b= ut > > after B I went to my friend's house. > > mi klama lo zdani be mi ca .abu .i pu .abu mi cliva lo zarci ca by .i > ge pu .abu gi ku'i ba by mi klama lo zdani be lo pendo > > > Thus unambigously establishing the sequence: > > I left the store. Then I went to my friend's house. Then I went to my > house. > > without actually needing to come up with the events in the sequence in > the > > order that they occurred. Granted, the idiomatic way to say this in > English > > in this order would be: > > I went to my house. Before I went to my house, I left the store. Before= I > > went to my house but after I left the store, I went to my friend's hous= e. > > but we have {goi} to avoid this kind of thing already. > > The idiomatic way to say it would be to tell the story in the right > order: X and then Y and then Z. If you somehow need to insert > something that you forgot to say, it will take some effort, in any > language. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016363b8fbaee19cd0491bb370e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So can you or can't you assign times to KOhA? In that case you assigned= to BY, which is more ambiguous than KOhA, since the semantics of BY =A0is = mutable from context alone.

2010/10/3 Jor= ge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 3:= 34 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbrava= do@gmail.com> wrote:
> That still doesn't explain why {ku} is used instead of {zo'e},= only that it
> can be used in that way. I don't really understand why that is hel= pful,
> linguistically, though I understand that it isn't going anywhere.<= br>
Well, "ku" is a bit shorter than "zo'e", and = sometimes can be elided.
Neither is a very convincing reason, but I can't think of any other at<= br> the moment.

> =A0How do I say something equivalent to this,
> preferably with the same kind of extensibility, or can I not do so?:
I doubt that you cannot say something in Lojban that you can say in English (or vice versa for that matter). The only issue might be how
longwinded you need to make it, but not whether you can say it or not.

> I went to my house. Define the time at which I did this to be A. Befor= e A, I
> left the store. Define the time at which I did this to be B. Before A = but
> after B I went to my friend's house.

mi klama lo zdani be mi ca .abu .i pu .abu mi cliva lo zarci ca by .i=
ge pu .abu gi ku'i ba by mi klama lo zdani be lo pendo

> Thus unambigously establishing the sequence:
> I left the store. Then I went to my friend's house. Then I went to= my house.
> without actually needing to come up with the events in the sequence in= the
> order that they occurred. Granted, the idiomatic way to say this in En= glish
> in this order would be:
> I went to my house. Before I went to my house, I left the store. Befor= e I
> went to my house but after I left the store, I went to my friend's= house.
> but we have {goi} to avoid this kind of thing already.

The idiomatic way to say it would be to tell the story in the right order: X and then Y and then Z. If you somehow need to insert
something that you forgot to say, it will take some effort, in any
language.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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