From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARD_rqPlBBoEP1uVgg@googlegroups.com Sun Oct 03 12:20:48 2010 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P2U72-0006VX-Ry; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 12:20:48 -0700 Received: by qwf6 with SMTP id 6sf5784246qwf.16 for ; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 12:20:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=WoPapVaUvxyR0w7JngAYcdGZclshMmRpsFdR+MUJk7Y=; b=okTwD6EFk0faBWhN66Dmo/eCTU/Xq9PC+Y/QODEXCPB4wlnJ3OnfIOsRVULdhnH2qn T1u0wQwBTTas5+rvD8uV/OTQueeHeEJoBZDmgWLL3kiXtrO5Zp6ZSjg8yIKwLxzN1d3m NOlAogA9BwML6D09rlgQ4ztlUGZwgUrQ78yIY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=pF99HImOde49ndh3Yq5y1UhxB7vyH4usuKtb2xAPo1AWkMsREI2SpsQfcAr8vYQkNf 1dNrzkgyWIM7NtrM4SwBXwEgwsYJn5stAosDuYn5V4NYTmJBVtRJAnoTS95NJoee6c5s xIXqPLWLW4UuiC4JIEYGD4omnUidjzObhYLd8= Received: by 10.229.2.154 with SMTP id 26mr618863qcj.40.1286133631967; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 12:20:31 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.177.9 with SMTP id bg9ls575924qcb.1.p; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 12:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.211.129 with SMTP id go1mr1878309qcb.8.1286133631331; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 12:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.211.129 with SMTP id go1mr1878306qcb.8.1286133631261; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 12:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f174.google.com (mail-qy0-f174.google.com [209.85.216.174]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id l26si2234408qck.9.2010.10.03.12.20.30; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 12:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.174 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.174; Received: by mail-qy0-f174.google.com with SMTP id 36so2063048qyk.19 for ; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 12:20:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.83.145 with SMTP id f17mr6220031qcl.165.1286133625936; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 12:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.92.2 with HTTP; Sun, 3 Oct 2010 12:20:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 15:20:25 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] A pro-sumti for PU? From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.174 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016364274a0e85ce00491bb513b --0016364274a0e85ce00491bb513b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Also, you say that the idiomatic way to say it would be to tell it in the right order. Yes, in English this works, but why, given the option, would you build the language in this way? Why not try to maximize flexibility of order? mu'o mi'e latros. On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: > ...typo: the semantics of BY are mutable from context alone. > > mu'o mi'e latros. > > On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Ian Johnson wrote= : > >> So can you or can't you assign times to KOhA? In that case you assigned = to >> BY, which is more ambiguous than KOhA, since the semantics of BY is mut= able >> from context alone. >> >> 2010/10/3 Jorge Llamb=EDas >> >>> On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Ian Johnson >>> wrote: >>> >>> > That still doesn't explain why {ku} is used instead of {zo'e}, only >>> that it >>> > can be used in that way. I don't really understand why that is helpfu= l, >>> > linguistically, though I understand that it isn't going anywhere. >>> >>> Well, "ku" is a bit shorter than "zo'e", and sometimes can be elided. >>> Neither is a very convincing reason, but I can't think of any other at >>> the moment. >>> >>> > How do I say something equivalent to this, >>> > preferably with the same kind of extensibility, or can I not do so?: >>> >>> I doubt that you cannot say something in Lojban that you can say in >>> English (or vice versa for that matter). The only issue might be how >>> longwinded you need to make it, but not whether you can say it or not. >>> >>> > I went to my house. Define the time at which I did this to be A. Befo= re >>> A, I >>> > left the store. Define the time at which I did this to be B. Before A >>> but >>> > after B I went to my friend's house. >>> >>> mi klama lo zdani be mi ca .abu .i pu .abu mi cliva lo zarci ca by .i >>> ge pu .abu gi ku'i ba by mi klama lo zdani be lo pendo >>> >>> > Thus unambigously establishing the sequence: >>> > I left the store. Then I went to my friend's house. Then I went to my >>> house. >>> > without actually needing to come up with the events in the sequence i= n >>> the >>> > order that they occurred. Granted, the idiomatic way to say this in >>> English >>> > in this order would be: >>> > I went to my house. Before I went to my house, I left the store. Befo= re >>> I >>> > went to my house but after I left the store, I went to my friend's >>> house. >>> > but we have {goi} to avoid this kind of thing already. >>> >>> The idiomatic way to say it would be to tell the story in the right >>> order: X and then Y and then Z. If you somehow need to insert >>> something that you forgot to say, it will take some effort, in any >>> language. >>> >>> mu'o mi'e xorxes >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>> >>> >> > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016364274a0e85ce00491bb513b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Also, you say that the idiomatic way to say it would be to tell it in the r= ight order. Yes, in English this works, but why, given the option, would yo= u build the language in this way? Why not try to maximize flexibility of or= der?=A0

mu'o mi'e latros.

= On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wr= ote:
...typo: the semantics of BY are mutable fr= om context alone.

mu'o mi'e la= tros.

On S= un, Oct 3, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
So can you or can't you assign times to = KOhA? In that case you assigned to BY, which is more ambiguous than KOhA, s= ince the semantics of BY =A0is mutable from context alone.

2010/10/3 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllamb= ias@gmail.com>
On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 3:34 PM, I= an Johnson <= blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:

> That still doesn't explain why {ku} is used instead of {zo'e},= only that it
> can be used in that way. I don't really understand why that is hel= pful,
> linguistically, though I understand that it isn't going anywhere.<= br>
Well, "ku" is a bit shorte= r than "zo'e", and sometimes can be elided.
Neither is a very convincing reason, but I can't think of any other at<= br> the moment.

> =A0How do I say something equivalent to this,
> preferably with the same kind of extensibility, or can I not do so?:
I doubt that you cannot say something in Lojban that you can say in English (or vice versa for that matter). The only issue might be how
longwinded you need to make it, but not whether you can say it or not.

> I went to my house. Define the time at which I did this to be A. Befor= e A, I
> left the store. Define the time at which I did this to be B. Before A = but
> after B I went to my friend's house.

mi klama lo zdani be mi ca .abu .i pu .abu mi cliva lo zarci ca by .i=
ge pu .abu gi ku'i ba by mi klama lo zdani be lo pendo

> Thus unambigously establishing the sequence:
> I left the store. Then I went to my friend's house. Then I went to= my house.
> without actually needing to come up with the events in the sequence in= the
> order that they occurred. Granted, the idiomatic way to say this in En= glish
> in this order would be:
> I went to my house. Before I went to my house, I left the store. Befor= e I
> went to my house but after I left the store, I went to my friend's= house.
> but we have {goi} to avoid this kind of thing already.

The idiomatic way to say it would be to tell the story in the right order: X and then Y and then Z. If you somehow need to insert
something that you forgot to say, it will take some effort, in any
language.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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