From lojban+bncCNCCoMTMDhDu4vDlBBoE4Vk0OA@googlegroups.com Mon Oct 18 04:37:37 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P7o1z-0000XD-8y; Mon, 18 Oct 2010 04:37:37 -0700 Received: by wwe15 with SMTP id 15sf150054wwe.16 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2010 04:37:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version:received :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=WAm2q02eIa61BoZW/ne0y5YlT8VcYaVYhEBCIf9f4Sc=; b=SSgmdw2bXGcWHTUauzRdJVAtXHvIk/CL+ghmLjfsm65KwB2UW4Lh1m8De2blCsa79a 6rQNmQK7B7x4P9ib2tRS95BYjwrtP7XOPh8ia7Z5OCyPluFqEelM2fukpWGNta5IJU9y COjZnwQ4ZloNkY1uLHAd44asAeyVOmRpiCKQM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=g4+p/EM7CYrWKiKRxHP+QXVHuCa9Pshjgfis5L4xnWz/uhcYt0lRVQY0Mb458vDBi3 MKVz5r7GBK47jDGtCY7AIINSrexCC97UDnMzPD2ICbdkEUPe3KaTn9HcCPVVMkjAOn2P ZxiUkR1IBzIe+mp34/yssohObgVVhWXxiFkQc= Received: by 10.216.59.135 with SMTP id s7mr490204wec.19.1287401838344; Mon, 18 Oct 2010 04:37:18 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.208.4 with SMTP id p4ls903801weo.2.p; Mon, 18 Oct 2010 04:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.74.68 with SMTP id w46mr182982wed.8.1287401836996; Mon, 18 Oct 2010 04:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.74.68 with SMTP id w46mr182981wed.8.1287401836977; Mon, 18 Oct 2010 04:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f51.google.com (mail-ww0-f51.google.com [74.125.82.51]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id x80si3495667weq.4.2010.10.18.04.37.15; Mon, 18 Oct 2010 04:37:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of selckiku@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.51 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.51; Received: by mail-ww0-f51.google.com with SMTP id 34so200323wwb.32 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2010 04:37:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.132.166 with SMTP id o38mr4471254wei.16.1287401835694; Mon, 18 Oct 2010 04:37:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.138.129 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Oct 2010 04:36:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20101018081646.GE8367@nvg.org> <0015174c140ef126fb0492e00e06@google.com> From: Stela Selckiku Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 07:36:45 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Re: [lojban] admire To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: selckiku@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of selckiku@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.51 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=selckiku@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 6:34 AM, Remo Dentato wrote: > > or maybe we should just have different words > for the different cases we use "admire". .ie sai There's no reason not to think about the meanings of all of those lujvo. If we think of good meanings for them, we'll make our language that much richer. Here are some feelings I have about these various roots: nelci: the x1 has some sort of positive feeling about the x2, not necessarily a strong feeling (though possibly), and they're not necessarily very familiar or intimate with the x2 (though they could be). prami: the x1 has a feeling of closeness and connection with the x2 that comes from some intimate familiarity. sinma: the x1 feels that the x2 has high standing, that it's deserving of attention and respect, that it's important. manci: the x1 feels awed by the x2, perceiving the x2 or thinking about its qualities overwhelms the x1, they feel astounded by it. melbi: this is the other way around, the x2 is having an experience of perceiving the x1, in particular they're perceiving x3, some aspect of the x1, and they find the x1 to be beautiful in that aspect when judged by standard x4. pluka: this doesn't fit the shape of the others, in this case the x1 is an event, one which has the potential to please the x2, to make them feel good, but they are only pleased by the event when the conditions x3 also hold, for instance eating a good meal might be a pluka to you, but only if you haven't already just had one. It seems just a little odd or redundant to mix "zgana" in with any of those, because they're already experiences that the x1 (or in the case of "melbi" and "pluka", the x2) is having. To "zgana" something is to somehow perceive it, and these are all descriptions of experiences, so I think they already include the experiencer perceiving the object or at least perceiving their experience. Perhaps though we could find some meaning though to the way "neizga" and "macyzga" and "pukyzga" and so forth put the focus on the perceptive element. Now that I've thought about it for another while, it seems to me that in most of these cases, you can feel the emotion about something while pondering it, thinking about it, remembering it, not just while directly perceiving it. So perhaps the addition of -zga means to feel that way about the object while directly perceiving the object (looking at it, touching it, any terzga). So for instance "pa'izga" would mean, "x1 loves x2 while perceiving it/them through sense x3 under conditions x4", to feel love for something or someone while looking at them, hearing them, touching them, etc. I'm struck differently by "selpu'azga" (se zei pluka zei zgana). In that case I'd think that the event of observing the x2 is itself is a pluka to the x1. It seems to me that "selpu'azga" might be a more fitting word in many cases where we use "se melbi", which I would say has an element of judgement and dispassion implied by the presence of its third and fourth places. To selpu'azga something is clearly to enjoy observing it, but it is possible to have little or no enjoyment of something while still judging it to be (by some standard) beautiful. (It's possible we could elide the "sel" in this, but it's also possible that to "pu'azga" could include perceiving that someone else is pleased.) I'm not sure any of that is relevant to the translation you're doing. I don't know the context, but I doubt that a plain "sinma" would be off the mark. Like all gismu its meaning is very broad. mi'e .telselkik. mu'o -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.